Buck Boost transformers on VFDs

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LMAO

Senior Member
Location
Texas
We have a very unique application where client is requesting 500V VFDs that can handle ±10% line fluctuation. 480V drives won't work because capacitors can't handle 550VAC so we have to quote 600V VFDs and lower under voltage trip threshold of the drive. Using 600V VFDs makes our packages considerably expensive and non competitive so I was wondering if it is possible to use buck-boost transformers upstream to 480V drive to stop down the 500V to 460V? Will the reactance of transformers be significant enough to replace the need for line reactors?
thanks,
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
We have a very unique application where client is requesting 500V VFDs that can handle ±10% line fluctuation. 480V drives won't work because capacitors can't handle 550VAC so we have to quote 600V VFDs and lower under voltage trip threshold of the drive. Using 600V VFDs makes our packages considerably expensive and non competitive so I was wondering if it is possible to use buck-boost transformers upstream to 480V drive to stop down the 500V to 460V? Will the reactance of transformers be significant enough to replace the need for line reactors?
thanks,
First is to answer why you have 550 VAC. Is it a 480 volt system that is running pretty high or is it a 600 volt system that runs low but within acceptable range? Next question is what variance is there in voltage when the system is at peak demand vs low demand? Buck boost will still vary as it's input varies and if the input is varying too much you may want to find a solution for that issue.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
We have a very unique application where client is requesting 500V VFDs that can handle ±10% line fluctuation. 480V drives won't work because capacitors can't handle 550VAC so we have to quote 600V VFDs and lower under voltage trip threshold of the drive. Using 600V VFDs makes our packages considerably expensive and non competitive so I was wondering if it is possible to use buck-boost transformers upstream to 480V drive to stop down the 500V to 460V? Will the reactance of transformers be significant enough to replace the need for line reactors?
thanks,
How are you non-competitive if all the other bidders have to bid to the same spec.
 

LMAO

Senior Member
Location
Texas
First is to answer why you have 550 VAC. Is it a 480 volt system that is running pretty high or is it a 600 volt system that runs low but within acceptable range? Next question is what variance is there in voltage when the system is at peak demand vs low demand? Buck boost will still vary as it's input varies and if the input is varying too much you may want to find a solution for that issue.

I don't know the reason for the weird voltage and frankly I don't care because there is nothing I can do about it. We are required to offer a solution for 500V±10%. We have 460V ±10% VFDs so I am wondering if I can just use buck-boost transformer (or autotransformer) to convert 500V ±10% to 460V ±10%? Will the autotransformer impedance be high enough to eliminate the need for an input reactor?
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I don't know the reason for the weird voltage and frankly I don't care because there is nothing I can do about it. We are required to offer a solution for 500V±10%. We have 460V ±10% VFDs so I am wondering if I can just use buck-boost transformer (or autotransformer) to convert 500V ±10% to 460V ±10%? Will the autotransformer impedance be high enough to eliminate the need for an input reactor?

why do you need an input reactor in the first place?
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Are the drives already purchased? I ask because most drives for 460V motors are designed for a 480V supply, and many that are marketed as being 480V are actually designed around 500V (ABB for example offers it both ways, i.e. 415-480V or 440-500V input). Even some 480V drives like A-B can accept 550V input without tripping off line.

When I see VFDs that are rated for "460V" input, it usually means it is a cheap Chinese drive that was actually designed as a 415V drive +20% for use in other parts of the world and when they want to market it to us, they "stretch" that to +22% in order to call it "460V +10%", which means it's a failure waiting to happen. I would find a better drive and use a 5% reactor, which itself causes a slight voltage drop that in normal circumstances can be problematic, but in this case would be desirable.

Buck-Boost transformers are going to be isolation transformers reconnected as autotransformers and as such will appear basically the same as a line reactor, although it would be difficult to ascertain what the reconfigured impedance would be. That's however an expensive and complicated way to go if you ask me.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Buck-Boost transformers are going to be isolation transformers reconnected as autotransformers and as such will appear basically the same as a line reactor, although it would be difficult to ascertain what the reconfigured impedance would be. That's however an expensive and complicated way to go if you ask me.

I disagree with your strongly on that. Both the buck-boost configuration and the isolation configuration do not, IMHO, provide any useful amount of series inductance like a line reactor would. You have the normal parallel inductance of the winding magnetization current, but that does not help with anything.

A line reactor has a single winding inductance, while the transformer has in addition the mutual inductance between the windings and that converts any inductive component on the secondary to a parallel inductance at the primary, regardless of winding configuration.
 

LMAO

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Are the drives already purchased? I ask because most drives for 460V motors are designed for a 480V supply, and many that are marketed as being 480V are actually designed around 500V (ABB for example offers it both ways, i.e. 415-480V or 440-500V input). Even some 480V drives like A-B can accept 550V input without tripping off line.

When I see VFDs that are rated for "460V" input, it usually means it is a cheap Chinese drive that was actually designed as a 415V drive +20% for use in other parts of the world and when they want to market it to us, they "stretch" that to +22% in order to call it "460V +10%", which means it's a failure waiting to happen. I would find a better drive and use a 5% reactor, which itself causes a slight voltage drop that in normal circumstances can be problematic, but in this case would be desirable.

Buck-Boost transformers are going to be isolation transformers reconnected as autotransformers and as such will appear basically the same as a line reactor, although it would be difficult to ascertain what the reconfigured impedance would be. That's however an expensive and complicated way to go if you ask me.

Nothing has been purchased; sorry for confusion, I am just used to saying 460V and 480V interchangeably.

I understand that using autotransformers in place of line reactors may be expensive but the alternative is to use 600V VFD for 500V application which is past has made us non-competative. Our competitor uses a different brand of VFD and I am assuming they get a good deal on their 600V VFDs. I was just exploring the feasibility of using 480V VFD and autotransformer in place of 600V VFD and line reactor.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Depending on how many drives and what size they are, it might be possible to put in a regular 3 phase transformer to feed all of the drives and skip the line reactors. Might end up being more or less a wash.

You may also be running up against a VFD OEM who really wants the business. Sometimes we get some pricing from VFD sellers that astounds me just because someone in marketing decided they wanted a specific project or a specific industry. You might want to point out to your VFD OEM that they are losing out. Don't waste time with your distributor on this though. Go to the factory sales engineer or product manager and talk to him about it. Just tell him you cannot compete in this particular set of projects because of the pricing structure and see if they can adjust pricing to help out. It does not always work but sometimes it does.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Also, it's not unheard of for low-end drive mfrs to just list a 480V drive as a 575V drive, basically taking their chances on the field return rate. There is one drive supplier that I KNOW for sure does this, because of you take their drives apart, you see that the power components for their 480V and 575V rated drives are 100% identical, meaning they are labeled for use at 480V.

And that then boils down to this:
When the semiconductor mfrs make the low voltage power devices, they don't really make 3 different versions: 240V, 480V and 690V*. They are ALL made to 690V design specs, and they TESTED to their individual limits prior to shipping. The highest volume of shipping are going to be 240V devices. So components to fill those orders are only tested to 240V and labeled for that. 99% of them pass and they get a greater return of that manufacturing investment, so the component price is the lowest. Then next is 480V and when they test them for 480V, something like 20% of them will fail. So to sell 1,000 components, they trash 250 of them and get zero return, so the sell price of the components labeled as 480V is higher to absorb those losses. Then at 500V, 600V, or 690V the failure rate climbs to >50%, so to sell 1,000 components, they trash over 1,000 of them and the amortized sell price for components labeled for those higher voltages reflects that.

When this company mentioned above sells their 575V drives, THEY are accepting that risk in their finished product, rather than the component mfr accepting it prior to shipping the parts. Unfortunately, the real cost ends up being born by the buyer, because even if the mfr replaces the drive under warranty, the down time it causes can cost a lot more than the part.

*We don't use 690V much in N. America, but it is used in other places in the world.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I disagree with your strongly on that. Both the buck-boost configuration and the isolation configuration do not, IMHO, provide any useful amount of series inductance like a line reactor would. You have the normal parallel inductance of the winding magnetization current, but that does not help with anything.

A line reactor has a single winding inductance, while the transformer has in addition the mutual inductance between the windings and that converts any inductive component on the secondary to a parallel inductance at the primary, regardless of winding configuration.
I didn't imply that the impedance was the same, in fact I said it would be difficult to determine just WHAT the impedance would be. When I said it would appear the same, I meant electrically, as in not causing any problems preventing you from doing it. But now I see how you could read what I said as being the same impedance. My bad for not typing what I thought... brain-to-finger interference.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
We have a very unique application where client is requesting 500V VFDs that can handle ±10% line fluctuation. 480V drives won't work because capacitors can't handle 550VAC so we have to quote 600V VFDs and lower under voltage trip threshold of the drive. Using 600V VFDs makes our packages considerably expensive and non competitive so I was wondering if it is possible to use buck-boost transformers upstream to 480V drive to stop down the 500V to 460V? Will the reactance of transformers be significant enough to replace the need for line reactors?
thanks,
You can. I've done it on 690V to 400V.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Depending on how many drives and what size they are, it might be possible to put in a regular 3 phase transformer to feed all of the drives and skip the line reactors. Might end up being more or less a wash.

You may also be running up against a VFD OEM who really wants the business. Sometimes we get some pricing from VFD sellers that astounds me just because someone in marketing decided they wanted a specific project or a specific industry. You might want to point out to your VFD OEM that they are losing out. Don't waste time with your distributor on this though. Go to the factory sales engineer or product manager and talk to him about it. Just tell him you cannot compete in this particular set of projects because of the pricing structure and see if they can adjust pricing to help out. It does not always work but sometimes it does.

A single xfmr may be the way to go
some isolation and adjustable taps

but why not just buy 500 v drives?
eliminates alot of complication

if the i is constant just put a 6-8% vdrop choke inline
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Off the shelf ab drive
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/td/20b-td001_-en-p.pdf
page 7, although it is derated below 480 -10%
over v 570
under v 280
adjust to 450 to 550
well within rated limits
they also make a 500 rated drive
Use the 753 version, the 700s are going to "Active Mature" status soon, meaning not obsolete, but no longer being developed or improved and there is a newer version now (750 series), so the pricing will be higher than the new version. The 750 series can go to 575V input (OV trips at 576VAC).
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/td/750-td001_-en-p.pdf
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Use the 753 version, the 700s are going to "Active Mature" status soon, meaning not obsolete, but no longer being developed or improved and there is a newer version now (750 series), so the pricing will be higher than the new version. The 750 series can go to 575V input (OV trips at 576VAC).
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/td/750-td001_-en-p.pdf

there you go, sounds like a solution

ot question
is it true vfds don't like a really stiff supply?
3-5% vdrop is prefered?
 
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