Bundled Definition

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bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
1. Article 100 / 520.2

2. Move Text

3. Move the definition of "Bundled" in section 520.2 to Article 100 Defintions.

4. Per Section 2.2.2.1 Article 100 of the NEC style manual, "In general, Article 100 shall contain defintions of terms that appear in two or more other articles of the NEC. There are at least three uses of the term "bundled" in the NEC. Section 310.15(B)(2), 334.80, and 520.53(H)(2). This will add clarity to the NEC at large.
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Bundled Definition

Bryan, this is a good clean proposal but I disagree with having a definition at all. This is a common word and the dictionary definition is sufficient. In other words, I would be more in favor of deleting it from 520.2. :D
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Bundled Definition

I kinda agree with Bryan--bundling and spacing don't seem to get defined in the NEC, and bundling to us is a little different than bundling to the rest of the world.

For example, the recent discussions regarding derating and whatnot have got me thinking, what does "maintaining spacing" mean? How far do you have to go to attain this, there's no values attached to the statement.

The NEC could do some clarification on this, and moving bundling and tweaking it's definition could help a lot. Just a thought. :)

Edit:
To elaborate on my idea, NM is stored in rolls or coils, and retains some memory of it after it is installed. When installing NM in TGI's, it's often easiest to follow a set path through to the panel, as Wayne is addressing with his proposal.

If the definition of bundling were tweaked to add values, it would be clearer:

Bundling: A maintained lack of cable spacing between framing members where cables have a maintained spacing of less than 1/4" in uninsulated spaces, or 1" in insulated spaces.

Typically, due to the shape memory of the coil, romex will not touch between framing members unless zip-tied, I think. As with the concept recently of drilling poorly to maintain structural integrity of the framing, the same idea applies to bundling. If cables are zig-zagged, or allowed to pucker between TGI's, that's better for the conductors, right?

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Kinda having a hard time getting what I'm trying to say clear. :D

[ March 20, 2005, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Re: Bundled Definition

There are a lot of terms the NEC uses that rely on a specific meaning yet the terms are undefined even though the dictionary meaning is ambiguous in the context in which the NEC uses the term.

I would prefer to have such terms defined for the purposes of the code so the ambiguity is removed.

Like - what the heck does "free air" mean?
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Bundled Definition

Bob, that is dumb. Free air is where you can just take the hose out to air up your tires. The other air is where you have to put a quarter in to get some expensive air. :D

Getting past the smart a** remarks, it is my understanding that free air is where it is free to circulate and not in a confined space. This permits the heat to radiate away from the conductors.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist the first answer. :D
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Re: Bundled Definition

Bryan,

I may disagree with Charlie a bit on this one since I tend to like specific Code definitions too. Where I would question this Proposal is to ask if you have researched every case the term has been used to make sure it is consistent with the 520.2 definition elsewhere.

Adding/revising Art 100 Definitions should be a TCC rather than CMP1 Task in my opinion. The simple redefinition of "Energized" and "Live Parts" in the 2002 Code was a primary cause of delaying NFPA 70E for a year.
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Re: Bundled Definition

Originally posted by charlie:
... Free air is where you can just take the hose out to air up your tires. The other air is where you have to put a quarter in to get some expensive air. :D ...
They're charging us 50 cents here :D
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Re: Bundled Definition

Originally posted by charlie:
it is my understanding that free air is where it is free to circulate and not in a confined space. This permits the heat to radiate away from the conductors.
I would have guessed they meant that as well, however they never bothered to define the term so how confined can it be and still be in "free air"?

Is a single #14 conductor inside a 6" conduit in free air? Plenty of room there for heat to radiate away from the conductor. Not that anyone is likely to do this of course.

How about 10 #14 conductors passing through a 16x12x6 junction box? Still seems like plenty of room for heat to dissipate. But what if the box were insulated?
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Bundled Definition

I think all XXX.2's belong in article 100. If it has to be defined why make finding the definition a challenge? When I look for a definition I don't want to flip through every potentially relevant article hoping to find something. I don't see any intelligent point in it. I'm trying to resist saying it's stupid but I can't, it is stupid.

I also don't see the harm in having a "much" larger Article 100. To me it would be a very simple way to make the NEC easier to use for everybody. And the book is already too big is a silly argument in my opinion.
 

luke warmwater

Senior Member
Re: Bundled Definition

Originally posted by rbalex:
Originally posted by charlie:
... Free air is where you can just take the hose out to air up your tires. The other air is where you have to put a quarter in to get some expensive air. :D ...
They're charging us 50 cents here :D
Now that's Inflation :D
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Bundled Definition

Originally posted by petersonra:

Like - what the heck does "free air" mean?
Bless your hearts, I will tell you all once and only once what free air is. After eating a big meal, maybe pintos with a few onions, the belly begins to rumble and growl. We begin to squirm and shift around in our chair until we feel a little warm air pass by the crevice of our buttocks. Now this air is free. No matter how ghastly an odor we might smell the air is now free. ?Free Air? The use of the term by the NEC is to elaborate on the conductance of this free air through out the ambient temperatures that surrounds it.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Bundled Definition

Bryan

I will try to look at this as objectively as possible so please don?t be offended by my findings. As outlined in ARTICLE 100 Definitions Scope. In general, only those terms that are used in two or more articles are defined in Article 100.

You ask in your proposal that the definition of "Bundled" in section 520.2 be moved to Article 100. When we find a word defined in an article such as 520.2 this definition stays and pertains to that article only.

This is evidenced in 520 by the fact that ?bundled appears in part IV 520.53 only three times. 520.53 Portable switchboards and feeders for use on stages.

Bundled is found again in 640.8 Grouping of Conductors where it refers us back to chapter three, 300.3(C)(1) for different voltages.

In chapter three ARTICLE 310 Conductors for General Wiring at 310.15 Ampacities for Conductors Rated 0?2000 Volts under (B) Tables (2) Adjustment Factors we find the criteria for derating. Bundled is referred to here three times as it applies to derating. Once again in Exception No. 5: and also in the last sentence of (B) (2).

As outlined above bundled in 520 has to do with portable equipment on stage and in 640 it refers to wiring for audio signal generation.

In chapter three at ?ARTICLE 310 Conductors for General Wiring? is where we find the definition for bundling as it pertains derating the ampacity of conductors. Here the meaning of bundled is clear and concise. This definition has a different meaning as those in the other articles. Therefore it would not appropriate to list bundled in article 100.

Respectfully
Mike
 

sparkster

Member
Re: Bundled Definition

OK I consider myself a master at resi wiring when it comes to looking neat and tidy, I am a nut for the stackit or stackers I throw them all over when boxing it saves a ton of time over stapling and looks very professional. Then here and there I will zip tie as well just loosley. I have never had a Inspector call me on bunching, or bundling is this what you guys, sorry, and or gals are talking about? I see all the time here in CA the fire wall area in Garage the inspectors mandate a 20 inch piece of EMT through the fire wall and all of the romex from th emain panel pass through this then fire caulk around th ewires to seal the air off in the event a fire starts in the garage, then not require the emt be grounded. What a crock,I talked the builder into creating a raceway out of the panel and into the house out of 2X4 and drywall then it gets mudded and taped. The inspector said it looks fine but would rather see the EMT.
 

sparkster

Member
Re: Bundled Definition

Sorry got ahead of myself, shouldnt the EMT be grounded in the event one of the wires gets chaffed as there is also no bushing, and aa hot conductor or grounded conductor gets picked up thus energizing the conduit, and how about bundling isnt this 20 inches of packed romex the perfect example of bunching?
 
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