bundled neutrals

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johna

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Let me get this out of the way: I am a lowly home inspector. Ok, I feel better now.

Yesterday I inspected a 100 Amp service panel that had 6-7 grounded conductors wire-nutted together with, as far as I could tell, a single 12 gauge wire connecting them to a neutral/ground lug. This appears to have been done because there was not enough room on the existing neutral/ground bars.

Even if these neutrals were evenly divided between phases, is there any way this is acceptable?

Thanks.
 
Re: bundled neutrals

There is more than one issue here.

1. If these neutrals are all associated with different circuit breakers then the #12 is not protected from overcurrent and this is a problem.

2. Its possible they are all fed off the same circuit breaker and the electrician just used the panelboard as a handy splice point. In that case it would be OK, if a bit tacky.

Without knowing whether one circuit or multiple circuits are involved its hard to give an answer.
 
Re: bundled neutrals

The panel is full, breaker-wise. I believe these neutrals were each associated with a separate circuit breaker.
It was not easy getting a look at this thing because it was in a small kitchen closet that I barely fit in. I wrote up the lack of working clearance, not that anyone's going to tear up the nice remodeled kitchen.
 
Re: bundled neutrals

I agree with petersonra. If the neutrals come from several branch circuits, all the "A" phase circuits could be in use while none of the "B" phase circuits are in use. This would make the current in the single #12 wire very high, and there would be no breaker to protect it.

Other problems also. If the #12 to the neutral bar were to open, you have several multiwire circuits with no neutral. Say goodbye to the computer, TV, DVD, etc. :D
 
Re: bundled neutrals

I wrote up the lack of working clearance, not that anyone's going to tear up the nice remodeled kitchen.
Click to expand...
I had an inspector once tell me that sometimes people just never get the final on a permit. Is this this a real world way of working the inspection proccess?
 
Re: bundled neutrals

Originally posted by physis:
I had an inspector once tell me that sometimes people just never get the final on a permit. Is this this a real world way of working the inspection proccess?
Click to expand...
Yeah, unfortunately it's an all too common practice. It doesn't make it right. Here we will send out a letter warning of expiration. In San Bernardino County they expire w/out warning and a new homeowner can be stuck with a real headache if there are problems. You have to pay to reactivate and then pass inspection.

The game is: You are gambling the inspector who comes out after say two years will just take a walk around and if nothing jumps out, just final it.
 
Re: bundled neutrals

In this case the homeowner was a union carpenter who remodeled the kitchen himself. I seriously doubt he pulled any permits. I heard him say he had "no choice" but to close in the service panel. His friend, an electrician, added circuits to the panel. No inspection sticker on that either. I get writer's cramp writing "no inspection sticker" when the service has obviously been upgraded. It's rare to see one around here (Philadelphia PA area).
 
Re: bundled neutrals

Man Larry, this sounds just like buying a used car in this state. 85 parking tickets and it lands on the poor chump that didn't know he needs a lawyer to buy a $500 car. :(

I guess I'm somewhat disenfranchised.
 
Re: bundled neutrals

John I think you have a good safety mind to come here to get answers to this.
I'm not sure what you local laws would allow you to do or what powers it gives you to get this "FIRE HAZARD" fixed but I would find out and at least write it up as the wiring in this house is a fire hazard. and no one should be allowed to move into this home without this being repaired. and keep a copy of everything that you write up and even get it sign by who ever you show it to. in the event this house were to go up in flames and someone was injured or even killed it would at least show you did your part. If the sales person or real estate person were to not show this to the buyer than at least you can prove you informed them of the hazard's. you have to watch your back even if it means you won't get any more work from them.
 
Re: bundled neutrals

Did it occur to the schmuck that doubling or tripling up the conductors in the terminals might have been a wee bit better than...THAT?

Depending on how small that panel is, you might be able to throw the ole box fill smack on him, too. Make him install an appropriate panel. Jeez.

Seems like there was something for calculating bus-bar fill in the code, too...I could swear I saw something.

Happy Hunting,
--George
 
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