Burg. alarm cable on ceiling tile?

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MAK

MAK

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Massachusetts-Boston
I've always been told that you can not use ceiling tiles to support cable. Specifically laying the cable on the tile no hangers tye wraps etc... Recentley I had talked to an inspector who stated you could lay cable on tiles ex. burg. alarm cable.
He quoted article 725.7 which states: Access to electrical equipement shall not be denied by an accumulation of wires and cables that prevents removal of panels, including suspended ceiling panels.
He said it was the NEC official position on this subject. I never & would never lay cable on a drop tile ceiling even if there was a code that allowed it, but I do not interpret this code as allowing an installer to do so. Anyone know why he would quote this?
 
You could ask him if you ever have to use 725.6.
That is unless He considers a suspended ceiling, as building structure?
I think He's just wrong
 
Ask the inspector what 725.8 is about. Per his logic, this article is negated.
 
Even if that alarm cable didn't prevent you from lifting out the tile and getting to your work, what happens 20 cables from now? I've been in many, many ceilings where lots of "legacy cables" have accumulated on top. Which cable is the offender preventing me from getting to my work? Well, all of them, and none of them specificaly. That first cable is just the first in a long chain of events. Twenty years from now, you'll never know which one's were the first few, not causing any particular issue, but compound over the years.
 
This is another example of where the code wording does not covey the intent. In my opinion, based on the current code wording, the inspector is correct. A few cables will not "deny access" to the equipment so 725.7 is complied with and 725.8 only applies to "cables installed exposed on the surface of ceilings and sidewalls". That is not the case here so you can't cite 725.8. It is also my opinion that the intent is that these cables be supported so they are not laying on the tiles, but I don't see any code wording that can be cited to support that intent.
Don
Don
 
This hits home for me. One time, I couldn't lift a particular panel. So I had to remove an adjacent panel and discovered that there was a pile of data cables on the first panel. Later I taced thefew wires coming out of the tangle and none were connected. The top of a ceiling grid becomesa big trash depository. Empty soda cans, tile scraps, etc.
What I would like to do is just cut all the crap away. If any thing is really vital, it will soon be fixed. 98% of it won't.
I also remember a 1/8" white wire running from the ceiling down thru a hole in the floor. Everybody had to carefully work around it. Can't move a lift there. Carpet laid everywhere except the holy hole. It turned out the wire didn't do anything.
~Peter
 
MAK said:
725.6 ? Not sure what you mean. Either way I think he is wrong.
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Only had my 2002 NEC (725.6) at the time. I see now in 2005 it's been moved to 725.8.
I also see what Don means about it being worded poorly.
 
peter said:
This hits home for me. One time, I couldn't lift a particular panel. So I had to remove an adjacent panel and discovered that there was a pile of data cables on the first panel. Later I taced thefew wires coming out of the tangle and none were connected. The top of a ceiling grid becomesa big trash depository. Empty soda cans, tile scraps, etc.
~Peter
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Peter, thats something that I hate. Lift a ceiling tile, and someones trash falls out, now I have to clean up their mess. I can't stand that.:mad:
 
Russ,
Just wondering what "neat and workman like manner" means in this section?
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The same as it means anywhere else in the code...nothing! The term is vague and unenforceable.
Don
 
lowrdyer88h
Have a look at NEC 2005, 300.23 as to laying cables above and across suspended ceilings.
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Note that if the cables in question are Article 725 cables, then 300.23 does not apply. See 725.3.
Don
 
300.11(A) says "...Cables and reaceways shall not be supported by ceiling grids."

Isn't alarm/low voltage wire considered cable?

So I would also think that 300.23 would apply, at least that's how we enforce it here.

I do see what you are saying Don I just don't know if I agree.
 
alarm cables

alarm cables

Don,

I'm sure you as myself have run into office area's that it would take the jaws of life to get that ceiling tile up and out of the way. As I read 725.7 in MHO the above ceiling area is not accessable if the tile gets destroyed by tring to move it. the movement of the tile next to where your working might be to far away for me to reach say a J-box. That's whats so great about this code we follow, there is a great amount of expeirences that are out here in this type of forum. We must be willing to listen and always ready to learn.
 
Some of the "rubbish" I have found above ceiling tiles includes brand new channel lock pliers, a hammer, various screwdrivers, etc. Still looking for a new working Fluke, but so far no go. It may not be an "enforcable" code , but where I work, the inspector wants it done, it is "enforcable", whether written in the code book, or simply something he remembered hearing once. So for the most part, I have been noticing burg installers around here paying attention and supporting their cables properly as of late. Stll see them drilling glue lam beams all the time though....
 
John,
I do see what you are saying Don I just don't know if I agree.
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How can you not agree? The code is very clear that if the wiring is covered by Article 725, then 300.23 does not apply.
Don
 
lowrdyer88h,
I'm sure you as myself have run into office area's that it would take the jaws of life to get that ceiling tile up and out of the way. As I read 725.7 in MHO the above ceiling area is not accessable if the tile gets destroyed by tring to move it.
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Yes that type of installation would be a 725.7 violation, but in my opinion, a few cables does not prevent the removal of the tile and would not be a 725.7 violation. I don't like them to be laying on the tile, but the current code wording permits it. Good place for some 2011 proposals.
Don
 
Don,

Here is Southern Calif we are a little bit jumpy still after the Northridge earthquake even though it's been 12 years. Everything above the ceiling gets a support wire, fire alarms, outlet boxes, speakers, etc, doesn't matter how much it weighs.

When you would walk through a shopping center and see the t-bar ceiling laying on the floor and all that goes along with it you were thankful that the quake hit early in the morning and not when a bunch of people would have been at work.

Now to the point. Are a couple of alarm wires laying on the ceiling going to make a difference? Probably not. But wouldn't 725.6 apply to this situation, sometimes I tend to use 300.11 as a catch all.
 
John,
I understand the reasons to support the cable, but I am talking about the minimum requirements of the NEC. You also may have rules other than what are in the NEC to cover the quake problem. 725.8 (.6 in the 2002 code) does not apply above the ceiling as far as requiring support. It does require the installation to be installed in a "neat and workmanlike manner" but that is a very vague idea and not easily enforced.
sometimes I tend to use 300.11 as a catch all.
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300.11 is not referenced in Article 725 so it does not apply to installations covered by that article.
Don
 
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