burnt neutrals

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Have you confirmed that each neutral only serves just the one circuit? Have seen where a junction box was made up with multiple circuits run through that someone tied all the neutrals together. Seen as many as 4 circuits brough together is such a way. If one of the circuits was to loose its neutral path to the panel the other neutral would simply pick up it's load
Yeah or perhaps a panel relocation where they keep the old panel as a j-box as well as kept the old neutral bar, so rather than splicing each neutral they ran individual neutrals old neutral bar to new neutral bar.
All you'd need to do is lift each neutral and check for continuity to the neutral bar.
 

ciro mangione

Member
Location
hawaii
Occupation
ej
The early post made mention to possibility of a 120V EV charger being used in the garage. Is one of those burnt wires belonging to the garage circuit?

The picture looks to be a subpanel, has the N/G bonding been lifted?
Are all the EGC are on the one side that have the burnt wires? YES
Have you confirmed that each neutral only serves just the one circuit? Have seen where a junction box was made up with multiple circuits run through that someone tied all the neutrals together. Seen as many as 4 circuits brough together is such a way. If one of the circuits was to loose its neutral path to the panel the other neutral would simply pick up it's load and the Home owner would never notice and issue because of the splice everything would continue to work. But if the combined loads being shared under the remaining neutral was to exceed the rating of the wire it would heat up maybe even burn. it would never trip the breaker as the breaker is only seeing the loads of the "hot side" not of the neutrals.
I would expect to see heating evidence on most of the length not just at the termination, but wouldn't rule it out if other things have been checked.

Most likely is loose connections. You state that all the connections are tight. Not to be insulting but how was this confirmed? Did you just try to see if they would tighten anymore? Use a torque wrench or driver to verify mfg specs? Did you actually back them off? With this much burn I wouldn't be surprised if the screws are seized and seem to be tight, and wire actually welded in so seem to be tight. (seen it) These wires need to be removed and stripped back to clean insulation and re-terminated anyway. That bus is compromised at best now, and I would think the inspector could ask that it be replaced with that much damage.

Been seeing issues with the mfg. of the bus screw or bar so that they seem tight before you even start, hitting the torque spec without even getting the wire slightly held. One was hitting the 20inlb (Eaton BR specs) without even turning the screw at all or wire even under the screw. Also, been having to run them in and out multiple times before you can get them to torque. Been a bigger issue more recently.
the middle neutral (the one most burnt ) goes to the garage outlet
as previously mentioned the neutral is floating. no bond to the ground, no main breaker MLO
all branch circuits are homeruns
terminations klein torqued
no seized screws
no inspector involved
swapping out the bus does not help me determine the cause
screws where run in and out multiple times with a screw gun to verify smooth engagement
(i always do that)
this l/c is from 20 years ago
 

ciro mangione

Member
Location
hawaii
Occupation
ej
If you inspected and tested everything, what is your diagnosis?
i have been in this business since 1970. this has flummoxed me and my son who has 15+ years in the trade.
i will change parts to hopefully prevent this from recurring, but i turned to this forum because i am hoping someone smarter than me has experienced the same or similar condition. i expected to discover some looseness of connections somewhere on the neutral system and very surprised to have found nothing. my son suggested that someone loosened all the buss screws and than a week later re tightened them. (possible , but i am not buying it).
thanks all for your suggestions
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
I've seen those 120V plug in EV chargers cause burn ups before. Someone using an undersized extension cord, and other things on at same time as well as poor connections eventually leading to overheating on the neutral, and not trip the breaker. That poor connection can be anywhere from the panel to any one of the receptacles.
How do you perform your test for shared neutrals?
Don't know how OP did it or If. One way is to lift the neutrals in questions and do continuity between the neutrals. Isolated circuits should not have any continuity.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Has current injecting device of some sort that will put out 20 amps?

how does one test the VD of a neutral bar? first time i have ever heard of that?
Needs to be under load then test voltage between incoming supply conductor and any outgoing conductor. Shouldn't have anything more than a few millivolts max or you have too much resistance in a connection between your test points.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Where is the feeder neutral to this bus? Is its only connection being bolted to the enclosure?

Did someone mix up the neutral and EGC buses?
 

ciro mangione

Member
Location
hawaii
Occupation
ej
I've seen those 120V plug in EV chargers cause burn ups before. Someone using an undersized extension cord, and other things on at same time as well as poor connections eventually leading to overheating on the neutral, and not trip the breaker. That poor connection can be anywhere from the panel to any one of the receptacles.

Don't know how OP did it or If. One way is to lift the neutrals in questions and do continuity between the neutrals. Isolated circuits should not have any continuity.
opened downstream boxes and ran continuity
 

ciro mangione

Member
Location
hawaii
Occupation
ej
Where is the feeder neutral to this bus? Is its only connection being bolted to the enclosure?

Did someone mix up the neutral and EGC buses?
the neutral buss is floating and is connected by a horizontal insulated bar to the right hand neutral buss.
no the two busses are not mixed up. the load center has been in service for 20+ years and the issue occurred sometime in the last 5 years.
 

ciro mangione

Member
Location
hawaii
Occupation
ej
I've seen those 120V plug in EV chargers cause burn ups before. Someone using an undersized extension cord, and other things on at same time as well as poor connections eventually leading to overheating on the neutral, and not trip the breaker. That poor connection can be anywhere from the panel to any one of the receptacles.

Don't know how OP did it or If. One way is to lift the neutrals in questions and do continuity between the neutrals. Isolated circuits should not have any continuity.
the garage outlet most likely to have been used is the home run to the load center
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
One way is to lift the neutrals in questions and do continuity between the neutrals. Isolated circuits should not have any continuity.
Right I would have just replaced that entire neutral bar, then lift each neutral off the bar one at a time and check for continuity to the neutral bar, then re-landing before testing the next one.
 

dm9289

Industrial Maintenance Electrician
Location
Pennsylvania
Occupation
Industrial process repair/ maintenance Electrician
20 year old cutler residential load center, no arc faults, no shared neutrals, all seven neutrals terminated on left hand buss burnt insulation, no heat coming off buss, all terminations snug, highest current under 5 amps while under observation. we suspect there had been charger of an electric vehicle through a 120V garage outlet.
theories, educated guesses?
i have to figure out how to post a 4mb picture
Did you ever find what the problem was from 9/10/24 im interested
 

DH Electric Co

Electrons, Chess, Bacon & Broads.
Location
Addison, IL
Occupation
Electrician
WOW! 40+ years in the trade and after reading everything & seeing photos I'm totally confused myself as to what caused this? I've done quite a few lightening damaged insurance jobs and have seen some crazy stuff. But nothing like this. I love troubleshooting issues [& correcting problems], and I would really like to know if the cause was ever uncovered. Like OP said, I can replace parts, but I always need to know what caused it so I can prevent it from happening again. Are there any updates? TIA
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TwistLock

Member
Location
California
Occupation
Electrician
Contaminated metals in that one bar from factory? Someone eating lunch while terminating or using soap to pull ?
Welder clamped on a 120v portable welder one day, that kept blowing breaker, while doing railings ?
If you did suspect an EV, did you examine garage plugs as they should also show some signs of heat too ?
Bunch of MWBC's that a previous EC corrected on the ungrounded side at breakers but at the time the neutrals didn't look that bad so they were left as is except they had already become resistive ? (yeah, lol I know - a long shot).
 
Top