LECTRISHIN
Member
A question in another thread got me thinking about this and I couldn't find anything in the NEC that covers burying a soldered splice.
Anyone know what article?
Anyone know what article?
Burying a splice that is soldered and insulated
- Thread starter LECTRISHIN
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Sure, 300.12, 300.15, 314.29.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
:grin::grin: :grin: Thanks for my daily belly laugh, George.georgestolz said:
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
110.14(B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose.
Wire connectors or splicing means installed on conductors for direct burial shall be listed for such use.
Wire connectors or splicing means installed on conductors for direct burial shall be listed for such use.
bkludecke
Senior Member
- Location
- Big Bear Lake, CA
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Not to be a PITA but if you can bury a splice in the ground (dierct burial cable) then from a practical standpoint, why not bury one in a box w/cover in a slab or wall or ??? I know the NEC says 'no' but it seems more of a design issue than a safety issue. I don't bury slices so just stay with the thought process. I've had a rough day.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Ever try to burn the dirt down?bkludecke said:
Here, have a cold one on me.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
My last fire job was a house fire started by a bad UF splice to a post light that was just under the mulch in a flower bed. The proper burial depth was not observed.georgestolz said:
bkludecke
Senior Member
- Location
- Big Bear Lake, CA
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Thanks George! Don't mind if I do.
LECTRISHIN
Member
I guess I should have been a little more specific.
A previous employer of mine had me working on a kitchen remodel and we needed to relocate a switch to accommodate a cabinet. The knob & tube feeding the existing light circuit at the switch that needed moved also fed through to a few more lights down stream but rather than remove plaster to run a new feed to pick up the other lights or installing a JB with a blank cover and cutting an access hole in the back of the new cabinet, he soldered and taped the K&T feed to the K&T feeding the other lights, had the carpenter patch over it and told me it was the only NEC approved method burying a splice in a wall. I have always wondered if he was BSing me or if it was actually acceptable. I can't find anything in NEC that say it is so I wondered what others might say.
A previous employer of mine had me working on a kitchen remodel and we needed to relocate a switch to accommodate a cabinet. The knob & tube feeding the existing light circuit at the switch that needed moved also fed through to a few more lights down stream but rather than remove plaster to run a new feed to pick up the other lights or installing a JB with a blank cover and cutting an access hole in the back of the new cabinet, he soldered and taped the K&T feed to the K&T feeding the other lights, had the carpenter patch over it and told me it was the only NEC approved method burying a splice in a wall. I have always wondered if he was BSing me or if it was actually acceptable. I can't find anything in NEC that say it is so I wondered what others might say.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
I'd say he was pulling your leg.
Inline splices are forbidden in 394.56, and detailed instructions for how K&T conductors are supposed to enter a box are given in 314.17(B) and (C).
Inline splices are forbidden in 394.56, and detailed instructions for how K&T conductors are supposed to enter a box are given in 314.17(B) and (C).
LECTRISHIN
Member
georgestolz said:
There it is right here in the book.
Thanks for the info George, another myth busted!
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Besides, I'd believe a splice dependent upon solder for conductivity one of the worst to even consider burying. :roll:
RayS
Senior Member
- Location
- Cincinnati
LarryFine said:
hmm.
I like soldered joints just for conductivity and reliability.
I've not done AC power cables in solder, but it seems like it would work as well.
I think the old K&T soldered joints were actually better than a wire nut as far as connection integrity.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
LECTRISHIN,
The key point, to me, is the "existing switch".
Was the K&T fished, or roughed in on open framing, or was there a transition from, say, BX cable to K&T at this switch?
If the K&T is twisted and soldered between two knobs (the knobs at the switch) then there is no "in line or strain" splice, and I think your old boss was correct.
If the BX has a "monkey face" fitting and the BX is strapped down, and the K&T is coming off knobs at the switch location, then, again, there is no "in line or strain" splice, and, again, I think your old boss got it right.
Splicing K&T requires a mechanical splice, twisting, before soldering per 110.14(B). The solder is not the sole conductive path. The conductors that are talked about in the OP are simple branch circuit current carrying and don't have the "solder restrictions" that grounding or service conductors do. I'd argue that K&T soldered splices are far harder to contaminate with water, oil, dust, etc., than those in pressure connectors that aren't filled with gel or epoxy, and therefor are better splices.
The key point, to me, is the "existing switch".
Was the K&T fished, or roughed in on open framing, or was there a transition from, say, BX cable to K&T at this switch?
What do you recall. Were there porcelain knobs nailed or screwed to the the studs at the switch box location, was the K&T floppy and in long, loose loom, or was there an armored cable ending at a connector?LECTRISHIN said:
If the K&T is twisted and soldered between two knobs (the knobs at the switch) then there is no "in line or strain" splice, and I think your old boss was correct.
If the BX has a "monkey face" fitting and the BX is strapped down, and the K&T is coming off knobs at the switch location, then, again, there is no "in line or strain" splice, and, again, I think your old boss got it right.
Splicing K&T requires a mechanical splice, twisting, before soldering per 110.14(B). The solder is not the sole conductive path. The conductors that are talked about in the OP are simple branch circuit current carrying and don't have the "solder restrictions" that grounding or service conductors do. I'd argue that K&T soldered splices are far harder to contaminate with water, oil, dust, etc., than those in pressure connectors that aren't filled with gel or epoxy, and therefor are better splices.
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