Burying a water bond

[Smart $]

I know....but it is connected to the interior pipe and I think that's what they want...........who knows

250.68(C) is giving permission ...

(C) Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal. Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to be connected at the following locations and used to extend the connection to an electrode(s):

Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.

I agree an outside connection is functionally equivalent. The "shall be permitted" clause makes it a bit vague, as permissive rules say "interior connection" would be an alternative or optional method... to what???

90.5 Mandatory Rules, Permissive Rules, and Explanatory Material.
...
(B) Permissive Rules. Permissive rules of this Code are
those that identify actions that are allowed but not required,
are normally used to describe options or alternative methods,
and are characterized by the use of the terms shall be
permitted or shall not be required.

 

[Gregg Harris]

I agree an outside connection is functionally equivalent. The "shall be permitted" clause makes it a bit vague, as permissive rules say "interior connection" would be an alternative or optional method... to what???

(A) Accessibility. All mechanical elements used to terminate a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to a grounding electrode shall be accessible.
Exception No. 1: An encased or buried connection to a concrete-encased, driven, or buried grounding electrode shall not be required to be accessible.

70-115 Exception No. 2: Exothermic or irreversible compression connections used at terminations, together with the mechanical means used to attach such terminations to fire-proofed structural metal whether or not the mechanical means is reversible, shall not be required to be accessible.

The metal water line is the grounding electrode up until the point it exits the ground, just the same as a piece of rebar that is connected to a UFFER and brought above grade and connected to the grounding electrode conductor.

You could dig down and connect to the water line but that could be laborious to say the least.

 

[Smart $]

(A) Accessibility. All mechanical elements used to terminate a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to a grounding electrode shall be accessible.
Exception No. 1: An encased or buried connection to a concrete-encased, driven, or buried grounding electrode shall not be required to be accessible.

70-115 Exception No. 2: Exothermic or irreversible compression connections used at terminations, together with the mechanical means used to attach such terminations to fire-proofed structural metal whether or not the mechanical means is reversible, shall not be required to be accessible.

The metal water line is the grounding electrode up until the point it exits the ground, just the same as a piece of rebar that is connected to a UFFER and brought above grade and connected to the grounding electrode conductor.

You could dig down and connect to the water line but that could be laborious to say the least.

So aside from accessability requirements, 250.68(C) is moot, as you can technically connect anywhere... :slaphead:

...on the electrode itself, that is. 250.68(C) permits connecting other than to the electrode itself.

 

[Gregg Harris]

So aside from accessability requirements, 250.68(C) is moot, as you can technically connect anywhere... :slaphead:

...on the electrode itself, that is. 250.68(C) permits connecting other than to the electrode itself.

Short of the exceptionException: In industrial, commercial, and institutional buildings or structures, if conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation, interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted as a bonding conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system, or as a grounding electrode conductor, if the entire length, other than short sections passing perpendicularly through walls, floors, or ceilings, of the interior metal water pipe that is being used for the conductor is exposed.

 

[Smart $]

Short of the ...

Getting back to the OPer's situation, he cannot compliantly connect to the exposed pipe in his picture. He either has to connect below grade outside, or somewhere inside within the first 5', even though the exposed exterior portion is functionally equivalent... right?

 

[Gregg Harris]

Getting back to the OPer's situation, he cannot compliantly connect to the exposed pipe in his picture. He either has to connect below grade outside, or somewhere inside within the first 5', even though the exposed exterior portion is functionally equivalent... right?

No he can connect to the 3/4 copper on the right side, the left is pvc with the ball valve.

 

[Smart $]

No he can connect to the 3/4 copper on the right side, the left is pvc with the ball valve.

Not connecting to the pvc goes without saying... from my perspective. But where do you get permitted to connect to exposed exterior copper pipe???

 

[James S.]

Sorry guys, that picture was just an EXAMPLE that I pulled off google of a bib that is also a service. I went back out to the house again and took some pics. One is actually the service. It is painted but copper pipe. The house seems to be solig galvinized pipe with just a small section missing (maybe 10') between the service and the rest of the house. It, apparently used to go up the outside of the wall and over a window where the pipe picks back up agian and then goes into the house.



This house is actually a pile of crap. When I first went over there I asked my friend if he needed my help in tearing it down. I took a picture of the front and living room just for fun.

Also, after talking to my friend yesterday he said that there used to be a hose bib right next to the panel but it got broken off at ground level. I am figuring that the inspector just wants the plumbing bonded and ran a 4' piece of wire to that. (Hooking it to the service wouldn't have done anything to the house anyway) He is going to fix that bib back in place and clamp the wire to it. Hoping for the best.

 

[Gregg Harris]

Sorry guys, that picture was just an EXAMPLE that I pulled off google of a bib that is also a service. I went back out to the house again and took some pics. One is actually the service. It is painted but copper pipe. The house seems to be solig galvinized pipe with just a small section missing (maybe 10') between the service and the rest of the house. It, apparently used to go up the outside of the wall and over a window where the pipe picks back up agian and then goes into the house.

View attachment 8382

This house is actually a pile of crap. When I first went over there I asked my friend if he needed my help in tearing it down. I took a picture of the front and living room just for fun.
View attachment 8383View attachment 8384
Also, after talking to my friend yesterday he said that there used to be a hose bib right next to the panel but it got broken off at ground level. I am figuring that the inspector just wants the plumbing bonded and ran a 4' piece of wire to that. (Hooking it to the service wouldn't have done anything to the house anyway) He is going to fix that bib back in place and clamp the wire to it. Hoping for the best.

Probably will not comply. How hard is it to run a #6 copper from the copper coming out of the ground to the service panel?

 

[GoldDigger]

This house is actually a pile of crap. When I first went over there I asked my friend if he needed my help in tearing it down. I took a picture of the front and living room just for fun.

It is not electrical, but in the living room picture it looks like a major structural member is in direct earth contact without even concrete under it. Termites aside, that probably does not meet building code.

 

[Gregg Harris]

It is not electrical, but in the living room picture it looks like a major structural member is in direct earth contact without even concrete under it. Termites aside, that probably does not meet building code.

Since it is his friends house I didn't want to bust on it too much. Not sure what he is doing with the floor framing and choice of material. perhaps in the desert there are no termites or ground moisture.

 

[Gregg Harris]

Not connecting to the pvc goes without saying... from my perspective. But where do you get permitted to connect to exposed exterior copper pipe???

Nothing preventing it. It is no different than bonding to a ground rod and it is accessable.

 

[James S.]

Probably will not comply. How hard is it to run a #6 copper from the copper coming out of the ground to the service panel?

Honestly, not that hard. Just more wire and it wouldn't be secure from thieves.

It is not electrical, but in the living room picture it looks like a major structural member is in direct earth contact without even concrete under it. Termites aside, that probably does not meet building code.

Not many things on that house are. I think he told me that he bought it for a couple thousand dollars and was planning to tear it down and plant a mobil home there but had some issues with some people in the neighborhood trying to get it declaired a Historical District. In my opinion a match would do wonders for this place.

 

[Smart $]

Not connecting to the pvc goes without saying... from my perspective. But where do you get permitted to connect to exposed exterior copper pipe???

Nothing preventing it. It is no different than bonding to a ground rod and it is accessable.

Not even...

...
The metal water line is the grounding electrode up until the point it exits the ground, just the same as a piece of rebar that is connected to a UFFER and brought above grade and connected to the grounding electrode conductor.

...

Technically, once the electrode is out of the ground or concrete encasement, as you said, it is no longer an electrode. Connection above grade or outside concrete encasement may be allowed by many AHJ's but it is technically non-compliant.

 

[Gregg Harris]

Not even...

Technically, once the electrode is out of the ground or concrete encasement, as you said, it is no longer an electrode. Connection above grade or outside concrete encasement may be allowed by many AHJ's but it is technically non-compliant.

What would make it noncompliant?

 

[kwired]

I have no way of knowing if it is copper all the way to the meter. I would guess it is.



This is not the house in question but is basically the same.

Clears things up a little for us northern people, as we never see such a water service - it would freeze. I wouldn't call the hose bibb the water service - and that had me a little confused also. It is just a hose bibb literally right at the water service location.

That fact that the meter is farther away doesn't change the fact you have 10 feet or more of metallic piping in the earth, which makes it a qualifying electrode.

 

[Smart $]

What would make it noncompliant?

As you said, once the copper pipe emerges from the ground, it is no longer an electrode. Other than 250.68(C), i.e. interior within 5', and exception you pointed out for industrial, commercial, and institutional, where does the Code permit connecting the GEC other than the electrode itself? IOW, show me where it says exterior exposed metal water pipe can be connected to with a GEC.

 

[kwired]

It would have to be on the inside to be compliant. Code [250.68(C)] calls for connection to interior metal water pipe...

As you said, once the copper pipe emerges from the ground, it is no longer an electrode. Other than 250.68(C), i.e. interior within 5', and exception you pointed out for industrial, commercial, and institutional, where does the Code permit connecting the GEC other than the electrode itself? IOW, show me where it says exterior exposed metal water pipe can be connected to with a GEC.

So we can connect to first 5 feet inside the structure, the 2-4 feet outside above grade are not part of the electrode but the first 5 feet inside is?

This is interesting.

Again, not too many of us have this exposed exterior piping problem cause if we don't bury these pipes they will freeze.

Maybe CMP responsible for this area has never considered this kind of situation?

 

[Smart $]

So we can connect to first 5 feet inside the structure, the 2-4 feet outside above grade are not part of the electrode but the first 5 feet inside is?

This is interesting.

The first 5' inside isn't part of the electrode either, but 250.68(C) permits us to connect a GEC or bonding jumpers there.

Again, not too many of us have this exposed exterior piping problem cause if we don't bury these pipes they will freeze.

Maybe CMP responsible for this area has never considered this kind of situation?

Exactly... freezing would prevent that kind of water pipe installation in Ohio. The homeowner would have to use heat tape in the winter. A common scenario for mobile homes here... but the application of GES requirements don't present this problem for mobile homes because of the "remote" disconnect requirement.

 

[Gregg Harris]

As you said, once the copper pipe emerges from the ground, it is no longer an electrode. Other than 250.68(C), i.e. interior within 5', and exception you pointed out for industrial, commercial, and institutional, where does the Code permit connecting the GEC other than the electrode itself? IOW, show me where it says exterior exposed metal water pipe can be connected to with a GEC.

There are no requirements as to where the connections must be made other than accessable and it has a coviate that if it is barried it is not required provided the connector is listed for direct barrial.It can be at grade or bellow grade, if above grade it must be protected. 250.104 (A) (1) allows for bonding of water pipes atached to buildings. The phisical atribute of the copper water line does not change as it exits the ground and enters the structure.