BUS BAR BURN OUT AND ESTIMATE

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Cybatrex

Cybatrex

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Florida
Hey Folks,
I need some sound advice from the group as I'm new in business and want to make some good business choices.

I have a guy that called me regarding a burnt bus on the panel due to arching from the breaker not making contact with it. Its an emergency and wants me out there asap for this which I'm fine with. I told him that we just need to swap out the whole box but he is insistent on just replacing the bus bar panel. Its a subpanel outside. Also, what would be a good price to charge for this type of service?

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Cybatrex said:
Hey Folks,
I need some sound advice from the group as I'm new in business and want to make some good business choices.

I have a guy that called me regarding a burnt bus on the panel due to arching from the breaker not making contact with it. Its an emergency and wants me out there asap for this which I'm fine with. I told him that we just need to swap out the whole box but he is insistent on just replacing the bus bar panel. Its a subpanel outside. Also, what would be a good price to charge for this type of service?

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least cost will be to purchase indoor loadcenter that has same interior and swap the interior - if you can find one. Looks like design they still use so it may be possible.

Breaker that was plugged onto the problem spot also needs replaced or it will fail again.

Does look like you maybe have condensation following incoming lines into the panel - enters top center hub doesn't it? This likely contributed to the failure - and may even have compromised connections of other breakers to bus.
 
kwired said:
least cost will be to purchase indoor loadcenter that has same interior and swap the interior - if you can find one. Looks like design they still use so it may be possible.

Breaker that was plugged onto the problem spot also needs replaced or it will fail again.

Does look like you maybe have condensation following incoming lines into the panel - enters top center hub doesn't it? This likely contributed to the failure - and may even have compromised connections of other breakers to bus.
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Very good questions about the condensation. I'll find out shortly, I'm heading there now. I appreciate your questions, they help me to be a better electrician.
 
I would not re-use any of those breakers, they all appear to be compromised by corrosion. The one that failed was likely just the first, the weakest link. Users want to get cheap on you, then their lawyer will come after you when the house burns down...
 
I think it will take you longer to drive there and figure out what it is, then go to the supply house and get a replacement, and then drive back then it will to swap out the innards of the old panel once you have the parts.

Maybe 4-6 hours? Plus parts.

I'd be inclined to swap out everything including the old breakers, especially if water got in.

If water got in, figure out why and fix that too.
 
Cybatrex said:
Hey Folks,
I need some sound advice from the group as I'm new in business and want to make some good business choices.
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Also missing Electrode Conductor, unless it lands in meter?

If corrosion is a problem below the meter, then meter base could be worse. I've heard of faulted meters blowing thru walls, and taking people's head off.

When POCO can pull meters for my main breaker replacements, some describe surviving meter explosions when removed, but they still appear to be in one piece. I guess if they didn't survive, they would not be there to talk about it.

When forced to pull meters myself, I always where gloves, hardhat, pull down, duck, and roll on my knees.

POCO's often subcontract the most dangerous work, like smart-meter upgrades, and repairing poles during storm damage. The subsequent fatalities & litigation liabilities don't appear on Utility quarterly stock reports when absorbed by NECA/IBEW subcontractors, the front line soldiers.
 
A new Square D subpanel the size pictured and with the breakers pictured will probably be less than the cost of a service call. I would not even try to replace the guts that panel, more labor and liability than it's worth.

Eta: that sub panel has no spaces left anyway, good time to pitch a bit of an upgrade
 
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Square D replacement bus bars, for load centers, have not been available for decades.
The 2-pole breakers look like they are about 30 years old.
 
Go up a size breaker box

Go up a size breaker box

I would Install a larger panel box (more spaces) and leave open spaces between the breakers in order to allow more cooling.
 
JFletcher said:
A new Square D subpanel the size pictured and with the breakers pictured will probably be less than the cost of a service call. I would not even try to replace the guts that panel, more labor and liability than it's worth.

Eta: that sub panel has no spaces left anyway, good time to pitch a bit of an upgrade
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I have changed a few QO interiors that were around 20 years old - new interior fit right into the can. Not sure if plug on neutral that has come out more recently will easily swap with old cans though.

One time had a 200 amp main breaker 30 space panel in a hog barn - was in a hallway and not in too severe of an environment - but don't matter where you put them in such a facility or how tight of enclosure you try to put them in - they still succumb to the conditions at some point. Anyway it had a lot of heat lamps and was loaded pretty well most of the time - bus bars had been hot enough that insulators between them had melted in places - owner called me because it occasionally tripped the main. Bought same panel, but about 20 year newer version - mounting holes all still lined up with old can, and new breakers. Went a lot faster to swap interior then it would have if alsochanging the can.

Changed a few 3R QO loadcenters over the years - especially the 6 and 8 space ones with the horizontal bus - when you run into one of those, buy an interior panel and take guts out - for some reason they are proud of 3R enclosure and price accordingly.

Also had a project one time where we were converting an old school from single to three phase service, and updating many of the existing feeders to three phase as well. Had like 3 different QO loadcenters on that project where we left the can in place swapped single phase guts for three phase guts, and pulled new feeder conductors through existing feeder raceway. (went from 200 amp single phase feeder to 125 amp three phase feeder) One was flush in a brick wall - easy change out since guts fit right in the existing enclosure without needing any modification.
 
Fair enough kwired. The hardware in that panel looks like it's corroded well, imagine some of the screws would have to be tapped out or drilled out. And yes there are times when replacing the enclosure it is a severe pain in the butt, what the op has pictured appears to have conduits entering on at least three sides, maybe faster to change the guts out.

If he sells an upgraded/more spaces subpanel, he will have to put a new enclosure in even if there were room for the bus bars, the dead front has no more spaces/ knockouts for more breakers.
 
ramsy said:
When forced to pull meters myself, I always where gloves, hardhat, pull down, duck, and roll on my knees.
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You absolutely must record and post a video next time you do that. :D

I can't imagine why there would be any arcing from removing or installing a meter if the main disco is open.

If it's a new installation, a simple test from line terminals to load terminals would expose any shorts.
 
JFletcher said:
Fair enough kwired. The hardware in that panel looks like it's corroded well, imagine some of the screws would have to be tapped out or drilled out. And yes there are times when replacing the enclosure it is a severe pain in the butt, what the op has pictured appears to have conduits entering on at least three sides, maybe faster to change the guts out.

If he sells an upgraded/more spaces subpanel, he will have to put a new enclosure in even if there were room for the bus bars, the dead front has no more spaces/ knockouts for more breakers.
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We haven't seen deadfront, but looking at how much space is at the bottom below the guts, it possibly is same enclosure used for maybe a 20 space interior - if so can easily upgrade to 20 ckt by just swapping guts from a new loadcenter. Screws that hold the interior in are sort of outside the area where water has been running. Common thing (not just in QO but any enclosure with a center bolt on hub)on 3R enclosures I run into is condensation will follow conductors entering from that center hub and if they go straight into main lugs or a main breaker with lugs on the top - guess where that water goes? Right into main beaker, out the bottom main breaker and down the bus structure, or just straight down the bus if no main breaker. Enclosure is usually fine - sometimes a little rusty on the bottom wall- water eventually ends up there and a little dirt/dust mixes with it and works harder on the bottom than anywhere else.
 
LarryFine said:
You absolutely must record and post a video next time you do that. :D

I can't imagine why there would be any arcing from removing or installing a meter if the main disco is open.

If it's a new installation, a simple test from line terminals to load terminals would expose any shorts.
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Problem with pulling meter isn't so much breaking the load as it is concern over what happens if a jaw comes loose and faults against something else.

Plugging meter back in isn't quite so concerning as long as you have the main open and checked for (no) continuity between conductors and ground.
 
The ones that want you there asap and it's an emergency are the ones that never want to pay. Probably just a heat pump or something down. Depending on how far away I wouldn't charge less than 4 hours and replace everything. When it's all said and done your name is on the line. Home owners will always blame the licensed electrician. And they should. It's your responsibility to repair it correctly whether they want to or not. If they don't want to pay for it to be done correctly then don't do the job. You will still be in business in 10 years.
 
I would show up with a new panel that one is toast, under sized, I could return it to the supply house if need be stock items.
 
one day

one day

You should base your price on 8 hours since you will most likely not be able to safely schedule any other work that day.
 
Cybatrex said:
Hey Folks,
I need some sound advice from the group as I'm new in business and want to make some good business choices.
I have a guy that called me regarding a burnt bus on the panel due to arching from the breaker not making contact with it. Its an emergency and wants me out there asap for this which I'm fine with. I told him that we just need to swap out the whole box but he is insistent on just replacing the bus bar panel.
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He's insistent? Is he an electrician?

The best business advice I can give you is to never let a customer's insistence over-rule what you know is the correct repair. I'd rather waste the time spent leading up to saying, "thanks but I don't want this job" than to risk my business with an insufficient repair or installation.

Spend the time needed to determine what's needed. Stick to your guns. I can't tell you how many times simply telling the customer, "this is what it needs" and leaving it at that leads to getting your estimate approved. Estimate high until you are certain how long your work takes. Yes, you might lose jobs for cheapskates but you'll earn money on the jobs you do, and doing good work leads to more work. Fixing what the customer insisted you do leads to lost time and money.
 
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