bus bar taps

[jwelectric]

looking at the pictures we have a 800 amp main breaker panel that has a bus bar tap kit installed that is supplying another panle installed beside the main.

the second panel is fed through PVC conduit and there is no grounding conductor installed in these conduits.

Is this second panel allowed to be bonded to the grounded neutral that is tapped from the first panel and no other path installed for fault current?

 

[chris kennedy]

No........

250.24(A)(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections. A grounded conductor shall not be connected to normally non?current-carrying metal parts of equipment, to equipment grounding conductor(s), or be reconnected to ground on the load side of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted in this article.

 

[acrwc10]

I agree with Chris on this, you definitely need a ground, and one in each conduit/nipple as they are paralleled conductors.
Now like I have said to others in the past "This seems like the old one two punch" we all know you are very well versed in code and would know full well that this is required so time to come clean WHAT IS THE REAL QUESTION ? This is to simple for you.

 

[chris kennedy]

"This seems like the old one two punch" we all know you are very well versed in code and would know full well that this is required so time to come clean WHAT IS THE REAL QUESTION ? This is to simple for you.

I've been waiting, this ones loaded.

 

[benaround]

Mike,

Is the second panel grounded at all ? I see the branch EGC's landed on the bottom bus

and the branch neutrals top/right, but, with that pvc inbetween panels the enclosure is

isolated.

 

[acrwc10]

I've been waiting, this ones loaded.

tic,tic,tic............BOOM!

 

[acrwc10]

It looks like there is no metal to metal contact between the panels. This may actually be a larger hazard do to the ground/fault current path may be made through some obscure contact of pieces of utilization equipment down stream of the panels and want to go through them to get back to the main in a ground fault.

 

[jwelectric]

Nothing hidden in the question nor am I going to come up with something later.

I just made this post for someone else who could use a little encouragement in their profession. They made the right call.

I am not sure but I think that the second panel is bonded to the neutral just as in the first panel which is not correct.

Thanks to all who have answered on this Thanksgiving day and my your day be blessed.

 

[wireguru]

thats an expensive way to get a bunch of 20amp circuits......

 

[jeremysterling]

The 800A main has a sticker that says 1200A

 

[masterinbama]

The picture basically is of a twin panel. therefore the second can needs to be bonded to the first. the PVC nipples do not achieve this. What I do not understand is the use of PVC nipples with locknuts and bushings. The panels in the picture is at least $8000 with the branch breakers and the installer could not afford another $20 for GRS nipples. When I see corners cut like that I want to dig as deep as I can because there are bigger issues on the project.

 

[jwelectric]

The 800A main has a sticker that says 1200A

That is the bus bar tap kit that is rated at 1200 amps the main breaker is rated at 800 amps

The question concerns the use to the neutral as the bonding conductor for the two panels.

The electrician contends that the second panel is nothing more than an extension of the first panel therefore the neutral can be bonded there just as in the main panel.

When the code official called me yesterday I was at the barn and couldn't give him the section from the NEC but told him that he was correct in so much as the neutral could not be bonded to the enclosure of the second panel enclosure.

Being that he is a close friend he sent me the pictures and I posted them for discussion that it might help not only us (him and I) but anyone else that might think that this type of installation is compliant.
I am of the belief that if there is one person out there that would think this compliant there is at least one more that would think the same way.

Maybe the post will help someone else somewhere out there and save them some lost time and money, of course that is assuming that this installation is noncompliant.

Again thanks to all for your comments

 

[chris kennedy]

The question concerns the use to the neutral as the bonding conductor for the two panels.

So did I win something worthwhile this time?

I could use a pie. All we had here was cake.

 

[wasasparky]

Is this a service? secondary of a transformer?

 

[jwelectric]

Service I think

 

[roger]

Hello Mike, I agree that in this scenario an EGC is required per the NEC but, is there really a hazzard if the neutral is bonded to the second panel enclosure in this example?

If the two panel enclosures were physically touching and screwed or riveted together with metallic chase nipples, would there be any advantage to isolating the neutral from the second panel enclosure? :wink:

Roger

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

As Roger has mentioned, there may be no real hazard in this particular installation. The secondary panel enclosure will become energized if the neutral current is not balanced.
Some people who install panels like this actually believe them to be considered as one panel.

The code issue is that this is not a permitted installation as per 250.24(A)(5).