busting neutrals

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steelersman said:
can't the shock received form the neutral in this case be worse than the hot leg itself?
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Nope. With the open neutral you're in series with the load so you'll add that resistance to the circuit formed by your body. If you were the load your body and the conductors themselves would be the only resistance in the circuit.
 
steelersman said:
so what 480 mentioned above doesn't hold true?
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so 480 what say you about this? Since your body would be in series with the load on an open neutral to ground connection it may not be taking all of the dcurrent that the load is. It would still be the same as a hot to ground connection, according to infinity.
 
If your the only load as Rob was saying, a neutral in one hand the hot in the other hand your getting full line voltage.

If as 480 was saying .... you put your body in series with the load equipment .... like you would be between ground and the neutral from a load then you would get something less then full line voltage ..... either way your cooked meat if you stay on it.
 
iwire said:
If your the only load as Rob was saying, a neutral in one hand the hot in the other hand your getting full line voltage.

If as 480 was saying .... you put your body in series with the load equipment .... like you would be between ground and the neutral from a load then you would get something less then full line voltage ..... either way your cooked meat if you stay on it.
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I had one guy working with my who got hit by completing the switch leg to a light. He claimed it would not let him go. I also have known someone to get hit between a hot leg and the drop ceiling grid, I think it was 3 phase. He couldn't let go, had to actually kick the ladder out from under himself. Broke his leg, but he is alive.

I dont get hit hardley anymore. I cant even remember the last time I was shocked, but I do remember it feels different depending how you get shocked. AL seems to leave a burning sensation.
 
it is NEVER a good idea to make circuit changes on a live circuit.
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In the real world you are going to be troubleshooting hot circuits..... or running back and forth an awful lot. Twenty or thirty trips to the panel to tshot a switch? Not likely.

I pull the cover off anyway and out pops a red wire nut and the neutral splice comes apart ...
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I have done the exact same thing. Take off the cover, hear the arc and the equipment below starts making bad noises. I was lucky because the connection didn't completly come apart and nothing smoked.
 
220/221 said:
In the real world you are going to be troubleshooting hot circuits..... or running back and forth an awful lot. Twenty or thirty trips to the panel to tshot a switch? Not likely.
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I work in the real world, I do a lot of walking and we charge the customer it.

Two weeks ago I was troubleshooting site lights at Wal-mart, can't tell you how many times I walked from the parking lot to the back of the store to turn circuits on or off.

I am not dying before Christmas to save Walmart some money and I am done proving I am a tough guy by working hot when it can be avoided by walking a few steps.
 
iwire said:
I work in the real world, I do a lot of walking and we charge the customer it.

Two weeks ago I was troubleshooting site lights at Wal-mart, can't tell you how many times I walked from the parking lot to the back of the store to turn circuits on or off.

I am not dying before Christmas to save Walmart some money and I am done proving I am a tough guy by working hot when it can be avoided by walking a few steps.
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Bad enough their employees get trampled on "Black Friday"...real bad to have an electrician curled up in the parking lot.:mad:
 
iwire said:
I work in the real world, I do a lot of walking and we charge the customer it.

Two weeks ago I was troubleshooting site lights at Wal-mart, can't tell you how many times I walked from the parking lot to the back of the store to turn circuits on or off.

I am not dying before Christmas to save Walmart some money and I am done proving I am a tough guy by working hot when it can be avoided by walking a few steps.
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Makes me think how many times I have done the same and also wondered if they make such a remote control device that could turn a breaker on & off. Thinking maybe a magnetic mount on a panel / panel cover that could manually switch a breaker on & off...

Keep dreaming, right?
 
Kdawg67 said:
Makes me think how many times I have done the same and also wondered if they make such a remote control device that could turn a breaker on & off. Thinking maybe a magnetic mount on a panel / panel cover that could manually switch a breaker on & off...

Keep dreaming, right?
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I was trying to come up with some sort of way to do that as well.

We service some very large retail lots and it can be a 1/2 to 3/4 mile from the poles back to the switch. On that site we usually have more then one of us and we just keep somebody at the electrical room.
 
Two weeks ago I was troubleshooting site lights at Wal-mart, can't tell you how many times I walked from the parking lot to the back of the store to turn circuits on or off.
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Apples and oranges. Sticking your hand into a metal pole hand hole VS tshooting a residential 3way switch. I'd shut it off too, when necessary.
 
Iwire and 220, I'm not sure if you guys are totally on the same page. One's talking about troubleshooting switches and the other site lighting. It's one thing to check power at a switch hot(can't do that with the circuit off) but it's a whole nother ballgame changing a switch out hot. When I do site lighting I need power up to the ballast so I can check open circuit voltage/relamp. Then I turn off the power to change the ballast if necessary.
 
220/221 said:
Apples and oranges. Sticking your hand into a metal pole hand hole VS tshooting a residential 3way switch. I'd shut it off too, when necessary.
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Not really, 120 VAC kills more of us then 277 or 480.

But let me be clear, my original post said

it is NEVER a good idea to make circuit changes on a live circuit
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I stand by that, IMO it is not a good idea to make a change to a circuit while hot and other than pure laziness and bravado there is almost no reason you would have to work hot in a home.
 
I was on a tall ladder in an Office Depot one day many years ago. I opened a junction box and out fell a red wirenut. Somebody didn't tighten it during the initial installation.

Something similar happened to my boss when i first started working for him. He had never really had anyone work with him. 2 weeks into working for him he was 6' up on an 8' ladder and opened up a junction bx to look at the wiring. Someone had slacked off and not put a wire nut on the neutrals AND had over filled the box. Looked like a real rats nest. As soon as he started pulling the wires out of the box he got bit right between his fingers, also right next to him was a water pipe running by. He was locked into 277v. I didn't know what was going on at first because the lights went out. All of a sudden i heard him moaning, then i realized what was going on. I immediately kicked the ladder out. That day he could have died.

Never leave above before checking every connection. That was the biggest lesson i ever learned as an apprentice. I would never want my wiring to kill someone. That's just being lazy.
 
It seems to me retail stores (office buildings for that matter) hold some of the greatest dangers for electricians - lots of 277 and 480 volt lighting circuitry, over stuffed boxes and bad splices from the original or remodel hack electrical contractors, and the expectation that the work be done live so as not to disrupt the commerce on aisle 5.
 
I'm sure we all have our stories about working live, getting shocked/nailed/latched - and of course letting the smoke out of numerous things by way of high-legging, open neutrals and shorting. I have PLENTY - but they were from a younger dumber era of my electrical career...... Accidents from others work - like the wirenut dropping off are one thing, but acting intentionally is another.

That said, WAY BACK - I was working for a few brothers, and one was giving me the lecture about making sure to only disconnect neutrals of the circuit you were removing, not any other live circuits that also are in the panel..... "Make sure you follow that thing down by hand - over hand and make sure it is the one want.... DOH!!!!! ------ Go inside and see if I just fried something...." I got inside and the customer was sitting in front of a smoking computer (and portions of it were melting like a Dali painting) in total horror. The worst part of that incident was that guy explaining to his brother how it happened....
 
I totally agree with turning power off whenever you can. This particular situation i got in a small rush I worked everything cold but busting the neutrals. What was I thinking I dont know stupid for sure. Of course the guy who told me I could have fried other ckts (sure) had just goten on to me for changing out a gfci cold so I guess I let that factor in (stupid. ) as for site lighting they make green helpers to turn breakers off just keep the deadfront on the panel and verify with a glowstick each time he hit the right breaker just how I try to do it
 
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