By the way

[Dennis Alwon]

Cutler Hammer is, Afaik, the only manufacturer who has come out with a combination unit (breaker & afci receptacle) that is listed to satisfy 210.12(A)((3). Not sure what the advantage would be but it is here. Remember this production is sold as a pair (CB and it's partnered afci) not any breaker will work.

(3) A listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker
with a listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault
circuit interrupter installed at the first outlet box on the
branch circuit where all of the following conditions are
met:
a. The branch-circuit wiring shall be continuous from
the branch-circuit overcurrent device to the outlet
branch-circuit arc-fault circuit interrupter.
b. The maximum length of the branch-circuit wiring
from the branch-circuit overcurrent device to the first
outlet shall not exceed 15.2 m (50 ft) for a 14 AWG
conductor or 21.3 m (70 ft) for a 12 AWG conductor.
c. The first outlet box in the branch circuit shall be
marked to indicate that it is the first outlet of the
circuit.

 

[ptonsparky]

Now, what does that combination do for me? Why would I want it?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Now, what does that combination do for me? Why would I want it?

Exactly what I was saying-- I don't have any idea of the advantage to it other than not having afci in the panel. I don't know what the companion breaker even looks like.

 

[ptonsparky]

Exactly what I was saying-- I don't have any idea of the advantage to it other than not having afci in the panel. I don't know what the companion breaker even looks like.

Three simple sentences, and I ignore or forget one. Jeesh.:blink:
I keep telling MDSW the symptoms are becoming obvious.

 

[curt swartz]

Dennis, do you have a link to the "set" you are posting about?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, do you have a link to the "set" you are posting about?

I will look but I was told this by the Eaton Rep that was at our yearly meeting. He is a cmp member as well

 

[don_resqcapt19]

This is just part of the long standing AFCI fight between breaker and device manufactures. It was a bone tossed to the device manufacturers by breaker manufacturers.

The breaker manufacturers "stacked" the vote at the technical session that adopted the 2017 NEC to keep 210.12(A)(4)(d) in the code as part of this same fight. There is not even a standard to create the breaker required by that rule. The evidence shows that for the size and length of wire specified in (4) that the standard breaker provides sufficient protection for the branch circuit conductors and without the reference to this non-existent device, the breaker manufacturers fear that they would lose sales to the device manufactures. (by "stacked" I mean that there were almost twice as many NFPA members that voted on the motion on this issue as on any other motion)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Don, how can they market this. It doesn't seem likely that this will cost less then the afci breaker alone so in what case would this be worthwhile. Obviously the other manufacturers have not seen it as a worthwhile endeavor-- yet anyway

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Now, what does that combination do for me? Why would I want it?

It might come in handy if you have an existing circuit breaker panel completely loaded twin breakers?

 

[ptonsparky]

It might come in handy if you have an existing circuit breaker panel completely loaded twin breakers?

CH twin size breakers are an odd duck, for me anyway, but if you have to replace one of those with a new, that won’t help there. Question arises now with can the CB alone be used on existing circuits or does it always need to be paired. Thinking the device will always need the CB, but can the CB be used by itself in a non AFCI situation.

 

[texie]

Cutler Hammer is, Afaik, the only manufacturer who has come out with a combination unit (breaker & afci receptacle) that is listed to satisfy 210.12(A)((3). Not sure what the advantage would be but it is here. Remember this production is sold as a pair (CB and it's partnered afci) not any breaker will work.

This product is to comply with 210.12(A)4)-not (A)(3). Take a look here: http://productspec.ul.com/details.php?code=nec&edition=2017&section=210.12(A)(4)&ccn=AWDT

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Thanks Texie.... I juust was wondering about the difference and whether the eaton engineer was talking about (A)(3) or (4)

 

[texie]

Thanks Texie.... I juust was wondering about the difference and whether the eaton engineer was talking about (A)(3) or (4)

He has to be referring to (A)(4) as that is the product they have listed in the UL Product Spec (AKA as the old White Book).

 

[kwired]

It might come in handy if you have an existing circuit breaker panel completely loaded twin breakers?

But the breaker and the outlet device need to be listed to be used together as a combination. Those old twin breakers may not be part of the combination. Don't know enough about them to say for certain.

The fact that Eaton is (presumably) the first one to come up with such combination of products isn't too surprising though. Eaton does own what used to be Cooper devices don't they?

Schneider and Siemens aren't making receptacle devices, and GE's power distribution products division was taken over by ABB. Eaton the only player with products made for both ends of this combination AFAIK.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

He has to be referring to (A)(4) as that is the product they have listed in the UL Product Spec (AKA as the old White Book).

Probably so but I didn't see a reference to (A)(4). Did I miss it

 

[augie47]

I'm surprised Leviton doesn't have a listed combo since they now have panels.

 

[hbiss]

I'm surprised Leviton doesn't have a listed combo since they now have panels.

Yeah, see how long that's going to last.

-Hal

 

[norcal]

CH twin size breakers are an odd duck, for me anyway, but if you have to replace one of those with a new, that won’t help there. Question arises now with can the CB alone be used on existing circuits or does it always need to be paired. Thinking the device will always need the CB, but can the CB be used by itself in a non AFCI situation.

Are you talking about the C-H type CH twins? It pretty limited where they can be used, and a huge installed base of that they were not even listed to be used in them.

The photo shows the limited positions on the bottom of the interior where twins are allowed. If they flop around on the rail where they supposed to clip on they do not belong.


URL=https://s197.photobucket.com/user/RFM959/media/IMG_0254_zps3075530f.jpg.html]

[/URL]

 

[peter d]

This is just part of the long standing AFCI fight between breaker and device manufactures.

Right, but now Eaton makes (or should I say has purchased manufacturers that make) both breakers and devices, hence why Eaton (via its now unnamed subsidiaries Cutler Hammer and Eagle Wiring Devices) make such a combination.

 

[Mgraw]

Cutler Hammer is, Afaik, the only manufacturer who has come out with a combination unit (breaker & afci receptacle) that is listed to satisfy 210.12(A)((3). Not sure what the advantage would be but it is here. Remember this production is sold as a pair (CB and it's partnered afci) not any breaker will work.

I believe the idea behind this is to allow localized reset instead of at the panel.