CA contractors and/or inspectors

[cowboyjwc]

Just a quick question for you CA contractors and/ or inspectors out there.

How many of you are asking for or being required to follow Title 24 energy? and I don't mean just putting lights in the kitchen and bathroom. Are you being required to install the exterior lights on residential as is spelled out in the Title-24 regulations. At the end of the jobs are you handing in the required Installation Certificate and Certificate of Acceptance forms? As an inspector are you asking for these forms. Are you being asked for or getting the SLTG-1C forms with a sign permit?

The reason I ask is that we keep getting the "you're the only city that's asking for that." And while that may be true, it is a state wide requirement.

 

[Martinelli]

Most of the inspectors in my area are good about checking for Vacancy sensors, dimmers, fluorescents, and Kitchen lighting, But I have never had an inspector require a certificate or even calculate the kitchen lighting. The plans and specifications usually have a generic T-24 section that cover all the bases and they have the kitchen lighting wattages calculated but those calculations are usually made up by the architect. We do try to follow all the rules but the home owners are alway complaining and trying to find ways to cheat and change fixtures after inspection.

 

[LEO2854]

Most of the inspectors in my area are good about checking for Vacancy sensors, dimmers, fluorescents, and Kitchen lighting, But I have never had an inspector require a certificate or even calculate the kitchen lighting. The plans and specifications usually have a generic T-24 section that cover all the bases and they have the kitchen lighting wattages calculated but those calculations are usually made up by the architect. We do try to follow all the rules but the home owners are alway complaining and trying to find ways to cheat and change fixtures after inspection.

then change the fixtures and they will pay you its their house:grin:

 

[scott thompson]

John,

When I compile a Project's Plan Set, Lighting Compliance forms are always included on a given "E" Sheet - unless the Project's Scope of Work does not affect existing Lighting, and/or include any new Lighting.

Where the Scope of Work includes Lighting, nearly all Projects will include LTG-1C and LTG-3C Indoor Lighting Compliance Forms.
Most also include OLTG-1C Outdoor Lighting Compliance Forms.
Only dealt with a few signs, so just a few SLTG-1C Sign Lighting Compliance Forms were submitted in the Plan Set.

Along with the Compliance Forms plotted on E-Sheets & contained within the complete Electrical Plan Set, the Compliance forms are printed on 8-1/2" x 11" Letter size sheets, to be submitted to Plan Check / Building Department (the "Binder" copies).
These are included in an Envelope of Documents, submitted for Plan Check and Permit Application.
(Envelope contains cut-sheets, spec notes, project information, contact information, permit application, etc., in addition to the Compliance form Binder Copies).

The Installation Certificates (LTG-INST, OLTG-INST and SLTG-INST), plus the Certificates of Acceptance (LTG-2A and OLTG-2A), are filled out per Project information, printed on Letter size media (8.5" x 11"), and submitted to the Building Department as part of the Compliance Forms "Binder Set".
An additional copy set is kept for Final, in case the Inspector does not have the ones submitted during Plan Check.

My Projects are Non Residential, so Compliance applies to CEC Title 24, Part 6 Nonresidential Compliance Standards Manual - Chapters 5 and 6 (2008 Version).
I am not sure if your post is directed only towards Residential Applications, or both Res. + Non-Res., so please pardon my reply if it's not applicable.

Scott

 

[cowboyjwc]

Scott,

Not aimed at any one thing, just throwing it out there. It's getting old after every job to have to fight about the forms. "Nobody else is asking for that" of course seems to be the stock answer.

You can see that I didn't get to many responses on this one.

Had a job yesterday where they went and added about 15 more lights than they had on the plan. The real bad thing was that the allowed watts were 1240 and the installed watts (before the new lights) 1238. Then of course you get the question, well how is everyone else getting away with it? As long as this number is lower than that number, no ones getting away with anything.

 

[BMacky]

Title 24

Title 24

The City of Palo Alto, which has its own utilities, requires a worksheet for calculations of lighting wattages for the "high efficacy" vs. standard lighting in kitchens. Atherton, on the other hand, inspected a job I recently completed, and did not care to review any Title 24 compliant installed devices or fixtures. It's a crap shoot in my eyes.

I've never been asked to turn in any documentation either.

FYI.

Bob

 

[Sierrasparky]

Required paperwork is done in the plan check stages, However at no time have I been required to submit a verification of compliance.

Lots of other contractors in the area do not even provide anywhere close to the correct wattage limits in the kitchen. I just looked at a new home with 8 recessed incandescent lights. That would calculate to 600 watts. I'd like to see them place 600 watts of High efficacy lights.
Boy would that be bright.

 

[ike5547]

I've never been asked to turn in any documentation either.

Neither have I.

 

[ike5547]

I did a search for and found some of the forms Scott mentioned and they're pretty scary looking. They remind me of tax forms in their apparent complexity. Very unintuitive.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I did a search for and found some of the forms Scott mentioned and they're pretty scary looking. They remind me of tax forms in their apparent complexity. Very unintuitive.

The acceptance and compliance forms are a way for the state to remove some of the responsibility from the inspector and put it back on the contractor.

The acceptance form is saying that you have installed what's on the plans, per the plans.

The compliance form is saying that you have set all of the controls to their "required" settings and functions.

That's for commercial.

For residential, at the end of the job the contractor is supposed to fill out a CF-6R-LTG-01 and submit it to the inspector and put one copy in the homeowners file. The form asks for the company name, responsible person's name, responsible person's signature, CSLB License #, Date signed, and position with company (Title).

But as Sparky noted, most people aren't even installing the right lighting much less filling out the right forms.

One of the lines that should be of note states, "I certify under the penalty of perjury, under the laws of the State of California, the information provided on this form is true and correct."

 

[ike5547]

For residential, at the end of the job the contractor is supposed to fill out a CF-6R-LTG-01 and submit it to the inspector and put one copy in the homeowners file.

That form's actually not bad. Looks like it would only take a few minutes to complete and you wouldn't have to consult a library of other information to do so.

 

[Sierrasparky]

The acceptance and compliance forms are a way for the state to remove some of the responsibility from the inspector and put it back on the contractor.

The acceptance form is saying that you have installed what's on the plans, per the plans.

The compliance form is saying that you have set all of the controls to their "required" settings and functions.

That's for commercial.

For residential, at the end of the job the contractor is supposed to fill out a CF-6R-LTG-01 and submit it to the inspector and put one copy in the homeowners file. The form asks for the company name, responsible person's name, responsible person's signature, CSLB License #, Date signed, and position with company (Title).

But as Sparky noted, most people aren't even installing the right lighting much less filling out the right forms.

One of the lines that should be of note states, "I certify under the penalty of perjury, under the laws of the State of California, the information provided on this form is true and correct."

Okay all the above.
I would like to comply but I am constanty Vetoed by either the CG, Homeowner or the Desgner. I recently spoke to a family friend who is a GC who told me that he cannot use CFL's in his jobs as per clients and designers. So he is always removing them. His cutomers are select and only through special reference. He can choose to do this without fear.

I on the otherhand don't have the luxury to choose the customer like that. I don't want my license on the line because of a Stupid CFL. But as I have come to realize if I refuse to not remove the CFL's or just don't install them in the first place I won't get the job. I can't afford to turn down work because of a CFL.

Don't get me started on LED , whoosh the cost.

 

[ike5547]

The acceptance form is saying that you have installed what's on the plans, per the plans.

The funny thing about that, around here, is that ECs are often handed plans to bid without electrical drawings. We've been allowed to design-build fairly large projects (commercial and residential) for years. There may have been some recent changes I don't know about because I have been driven out of some markets seemingly by a lack of competitiveness.

The last (what I would consider large) commercial project I was asked to bid in the City (S.F.) about a month or so ago had no electrical drawings. I found myself scratching my head on the title 24 stuff. I ended up doing the best I could and submitted a very high price. Naturally, that was the end of that. I can't help wondering if someone else got the job and pretty much ignored T24 -- and if so, how much they got away with.

I still get accessible baths, store fronts, signs and things like that occasionally, but not entire spaces.

 

[ike5547]

Or maybe it's the larger outfits that have been able to afford sending some of their people to T24 re-education camp that are picking up these jobs (not that there are a lot out there). The little guys are trying to learn through osmosis.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I completely understand guys, especially Sparky, but you could be putting you license on the line. Building departments that are not enforcing it are putting them selves on the line. We have been audited three times and have so far passed with flying colors.

T-24 in this state is not a request, it is adopted and becomes law the same as the electrical code.

Where the Enforcement Agency Fails to Enforce. If an enforcement agency fails to enforce the requirements of this article or of Part 6, the (Energy) Commission, after furnishing 10 days written, notice, may condition building permit issuance.....

What that means is that they sit someone at your front counter and decide which permits you can issue.

I stood up at a California Electrical Inspectors meeting and told everyone there that if they did not start to comply that the state would really come down on us, that was six years ago and that's exactly what happened, the restrictions got tighter. If we keep bucking the system, you will start to only see high efficacy lighting at point of sale, meaning you won't be able to buy incandecent lighting in this start, you might be able to still buy bulbs for older fixtures, but I think you should save this post so I won't have to say I told you so.:roll:

 

[bluesmoke...oops]

meaning you won't be able to buy incandecent lighting

watch out, you are going to open a can of worms :grin:

 

[Sierrasparky]

I completely understand guys, especially Sparky, but you could be putting you license on the line. Building departments that are not enforcing it are putting them selves on the line. We have been audited three times and have so far passed with flying colors.

T-24 in this state is not a request, it is adopted and becomes law the same as the electrical code.

Where the Enforcement Agency Fails to Enforce. If an enforcement agency fails to enforce the requirements of this article or of Part 6, the (Energy) Commission, after furnishing 10 days written, notice, may condition building permit issuance.....

What that means is that they sit someone at your front counter and decide which permits you can issue.

I stood up at a California Electrical Inspectors meeting and told everyone there that if they did not start to comply that the state would really come down on us, that was six years ago and that's exactly what happened, the restrictions got tighter. If we keep bucking the system, you will start to only see high efficacy lighting at point of sale, meaning you won't be able to buy incandecent lighting in this start, you might be able to still buy bulbs for older fixtures, but I think you should save this post so I won't have to say I told you so.:roll:

So you think I should turn someone in..
Boy that will get me more work.
A local contractor turned in a unlicensed contractor because that unlicensed guy was stepping in on multi-family project he was buddies with the management. Did he get the job away from the Un-lic EC NO. The GC did not even contact him.
Turning in someone only get bad blood.

 

[ike5547]

So you think I should turn someone in..
Boy that will get me more work.
A local contractor turned in a unlicensed contractor...

I think he's referring to the enforcement and complete documentation of T24, part 6 by the building department on permitted jobs. Which is rarely done currently.

Of course the automatic work around for this from a client's perspective will be to forego permits whenever possible.

Our own situations are between a rock and a hard place. An over regulating state vs. black market labor.

 

[cowboyjwc]

watch out, you are going to open a can of worms :grin:

Come on, I'm going for 20 pages.:grin:

Sparky, the only thing I could tell you is how I live my life, I could care less what anyone else is doing, I don't even care what the other inspectors are doing including my own, if they want to sign it and can sleep at night so be it. I get paid to do a job and I do and then I go home at night. Pretty simple really.

That is correct Ike.

 

[ike5547]

Another problem in S.F., and one I just discovered recently when a customer I've had for about 10 years hired somebody else, is that GCs can obtain electrical permits. They can then turn around and hire undocumented sidekicks to do the electrical work and show up for inspections themselves. That is what happened in this particular case and I'm sure it's not rare. It's illegal, but who's going to report it?

In California an EC's employees have to be certified electricians or registered apprentices.