Calculation Q

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I am not quite following the thread of this thread :roll:. But I will submit that the code requires us to, (1) Include a minimum amount of stuff in our load calculations, so that the building will have capacity for the things that are likely to be installed therein, and (2) Install a minimum set of specific circuits, so that there is a place to plug in some of the things that are likely to be purchased by the homeowner. All else is within the realm of design choices.
 
Strathead said:
There are extremes, but to play devil's advocate, using your argument, you should only use single receptacles throughout any project, feed them with 15 and 20 amps respectively and dedicate every one, because you never know how they will be used. The code for example allows 1 bathroom circuit to share multiple bathrooms, but it is no stretch to believe that 3 kids may want to use their hair dryers at the same time before school. What is the difference in that.
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IMO, if you know it is going to be installed, the load should be figured into the calc' somewhere. Whether each washer is included in laundry circuit(s) or as an appliance load(s) is a design issue.

Strathead said:
PS saw Styx a couple of weeks ago. They were awesome!
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Saw them with Kansas and Foriegner as opening acts a couple summers ago. One of the best concerts ever!
 
resistance said:
I still haven?t been convinced otherwise, especially when a reputable site agrees with my me.
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You'll find a bevy of info out there that says the washer is to be plugged into the laundry branch circuit. As a result of this disinformation, many believe it to be the only circuit a washer can be plugged in. The NEC doesn't actually say that. Yet the NEC doesn't actually say the washer can't be plugged in there.

The point I stand on is if it is a known load, it has to be included in the calc' one way or the other, unless you can find an exception somewhere that I'm not aware of. I believe the washer receptacle should be an appliance outlet, and not the laundry receptacle... but that's JMO.
 
resistance said:
I was waiting on someone to try and bring this up. Sorry, bad example. I say this, because we are talking about a space that is dedicated to laundering cloths?which in my view means, a washer will be or maybe used in that space. A bathroom doesn?t have a specific demand requirement, so bad example. I?ve said it a few times. This laundry space has the necessary equipment to attach to a washer, so obviously this space may have a washer. If the space has the necessary plumbing to attach to a washer (Rather they install an appliance or not), then I call it a laundry space?where the 1500va shall apply for each additional laundry room. Note: I never said it was one laundry space?where multiply washers can be installed.
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Unless I miss the point you are trying to make, you are wrong. The code requires 1 laundry circuit for any and all the outlets required in section 210.52(F) It clearly does not require a circuit for multiple laundry rooms or locations in a single residence. The word laundry room is not used in any of the applicable sections. Regarding the load, and having enough capacity for it in a dwelling unit, in the 20 plus years I have been doing electrical work, I have never known a main breaker in a dwelling unit to trip from an overload condition, nor have I ever felt a main breaker getting too hot from an overload condition, nor have I ever put an ammeter on a house feeder andfound it to be drawing over current from an overload condition. I do not think that I would worry about an overload on the main because someone was running two washing machines in the same house. The point here is that the NEC allows you to feedmore than one laundry receptacle outlet from the one code required laundry circuit. The washing machine is not a fixed appliance therefore it is not required to be included in the load calculations other than the generic requirement not to overload any circuit. No matter whether you think it should be included. The code does not require it.
 
Smart $ said:
IMO, if you know it is going to be installed, the load should be figured into the calc' somewhere. Whether each washer is included in laundry circuit(s) or as an appliance load(s) is a design issue.


Saw them with Kansas and Foriegner as opening acts a couple summers ago. One of the best concerts ever!
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Seen them both also. Again I contend, you are not "installing a washing machine" it is not a fixed appliance. And don't say you fix it by installing the water line either, because then you would need to calculate a pressure washer too, if the person owned one.


Bottom line, do any of you believe that a house would be overloaded by adding an additional washing machine?
 
@ smart, I'm sure you can plug a washer into any receptacle outlet, but rather you can use it as intened will depend on the equipment ( plumbing )provided in that space. But, I see your point.
@strat, to the somewhat obvious=sorry you spent so much time typing your message.
 
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Strathead said:
... Again I contend, you are not "installing a washing machine" it is not a fixed appliance. And don't say you fix it by installing the water line either, because then you would need to calculate a pressure washer too, if the person owned one.
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It doesn't have to be a fixed-in-place appliance. Look up motor-operated appliance (which a washing machine is). It says nothing about it being fixed in place.
 
Smart $ said:
It doesn't have to be a fixed-in-place appliance. Look up motor-operated appliance (which a washing machine is). It says nothing about it being fixed in place.
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I don't know what section you are referring to with motor operated appliance, but I would have to assume that a hair dryer is one, and the current draw on one of them is potentially as much or more than a washing machine. So why would you not need to find out how many children and parents may be using them every morning and include this in your calculation under the premise you are presenting above. One example of many. Shop tools, vacuum cleaners, etc.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
So we should throw out art. 210.23 (A)(1)
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Smart $ said:
It doesn't have to be a fixed-in-place appliance. Look up motor-operated appliance (which a washing machine is). It says nothing about it being fixed in place.
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That was the similar point I was trying to make.

Strathead - look at 220.54. 5000 watts for each dryer served.
 
I can agree a washer is not a fixed appliance.
Unless I miss the point you are trying to make, you are wrong. The code requires 1 laundry circuit for any and all the outlets required in section 210.52(F) It clearly does not require a circuit for multiple laundry rooms or locations in a single residence. The word laundry room is not used in any of the applicable sections. Regarding the load, and having enough capacity for it in a dwelling unit, in the 20 plus years I have been doing electrical work, I have never known a main breaker in a dwelling unit to trip from an overload condition, nor have I ever felt a main breaker getting too hot from an overload condition, nor have I ever put an ammeter on a house feeder andfound it to be drawing over current from an overload condition. I do not think that I would worry about an overload on the main because someone was running two washing machines in the same house. The point here is that the NEC allows you to feedmore than one laundry receptacle outlet from the one code required laundry circuit. The washing machine is not a fixed appliance therefore it is not required to be included in the load calculations other than the generic requirement not to overload any circuit. No matter whether you think it should be included. The code does not require it.
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Obviously you know more than we do, sorry to step on your years of experience. I rest!
 
Seems the subject of laundry has been a long debate before. Note: With a simple flip to the index, I found that Laundry is defined in one part of the NEC. That’s 550.2. Here is the link to the long debate:http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=78623&page=5. Note: I believe the question of rather it should be calculated based on the one (1) required 1500va or not seems mute.
 
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John120/240 said:
Maybe it has ben brought up already, but is a stack washer-dryer combo one load ?

Those that I have seen only had one 240V 30A cord on them.
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IMO, it is one load, especially having only one cord. ;)


Being it functions, even though only in part, as an electric clothes dryer, it should be calculated as such... i.e. 5000VA or nameplate whichever is greater. Doing so does covers the washer portion of the load, too.
 
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