Camera wiring - future proof

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You've just described Modbus/RTU (1979) and BACnet/MSTP (1987).
Those are both layer 7 protocols. Single pair ethernet can be just layer 2, leaving the application to define its own suitable protocol.

Looking at newer (residential) HVAC plants, it seems the industry is adopting completely incompatible products: this particular AHU requires this specific thermostat, etc.

Legacy HVAC systems had pretty standardized interfaces for heat/cool/fan, number of stages, heat pump, etc.

But, now, there are plants with literally hundreds of "stages" of cooling (specsmanship?) so the old tstat cable approach would fall short.

Yet, no reason to force standardization on the manufacturers -- especially if each is looking to implement their own particular solution to the high efficiency issue.

Here, I monitor the intake and discharge temperatures, humidity and pressures of the AHU, temperatures of liquid and suction lines, etc. Because the plant isn't smart enough to tell me about anomalous conditions before they become problems (e.g., static pressure in discharge too high). With just a layer 2 interconnect, I am free to invent whatever protocol is appropriate to my application without the overhead of trying to fit my application into a protocol defined for a variety of (industrial) applications.

Plan to see a lot more of this in residences and commercial buildings, going forward.
 
Those are both layer 7 protocols. Single pair ethernet can be just layer 2, leaving the application to define its own suitable protocol.
Wanna be pedantic? Fine. RS-485, good for 10Mbit over short distances.
especially if each is looking to implement their own particular solution to the high efficiency issue.
You just described vendor lock-in. Sorry, not interested.
Plan to see a lot more of this in residences and commercial buildings, going forward.
Why would I need this in my house, and how many commercial buildings really need the kind of speed you seem to be implying? It's not as if air changes that fast.
 
Wanna be pedantic? Fine. RS-485, good for 10Mbit over short distances.
Has been around for ages. Doesn't support PoDL so the endpoints have to have their own power sources. Fine for an AHU talking to a condensing unit but what about a camera?

The point is, the legacy tstat interface is no longer serving the needs of new plants. And, the cabling used for it can be replaced by other communicating technologies.. Given that SPE can address other, additional communications needs, a smarter approach is to expect all communicating devices to rely on a single cabling/signaling technology.
You just described vendor lock-in. Sorry, not interested.
Welcome to the 21st century. Finding plants with "24 volt" interfaces is now a special selection criteria. The compressor/condensing unit is now more heavily integrated withthe AHU controls to get the higher SEER2 ratings. There is more data that can be obtained from the compressor to assist in determining blower speed, compressor speed, outdoor temperatures, cooling efficiency, etc. As the old hardwired interface just gave you 1 or 2 stages of cooling via those conductors, you need a way of exchanging more information -- status and control.

Why would I need this in my house, and how many commercial buildings really need the kind of speed you seem to be implying? It's not as if air changes that fast.
But HVAC isn't the only thing that relies on communications. Adopting a common technology for the development and deployment of devices for that market simplifies the design of those devices as well as the installation -- you don't have to run 18/2 for the doorbell, 18/8 for the tstat, RG6 for the cable/rooftop antenna, CAT5/6 for inhome networking, etc.

Present day, you are silently relying on WiFi to connect your doorbell to your ISP, your stove, refrigerator, smart TV, etc. As you said, "sorry, not interested" in having all of these things "exposed" or hackable-from-a-distance. Wired interfaces give some measure of protection from hacking (you need physical access to do so) as well as delivering power to those leaf devices.

You need that "speed" because other devices rely on that (try delivering audio and video content from a media tank or online streaming source at low data rates -- or, firmware updates!).

And, you need a technology that will easily interface to the outside world (so your tstat can get weather reports, your camera can email you alerts and video snippets, etc.) Otherwise, you need "gateway" devices for each proprietary solution. Your tstat talks directly to your wireless AP/router thus eliminating a special "interface box" that does that.

People are now building homes with wiring in place for all that sort of stuff (my HVAC supplier has 4000 ft of CAT5 in his home). Once you have that infrastructure in place, you can do lots of things that aren't (economically) possible using legacy wiring standards.
 
Fortunately, I don't need any of that stuff, most people don't. My vaguely-smart 'stat talks to the gravity furnace with, get this TWO WIRES! And it WORKS!. My computers are all plugged in to a 1gT wired network and the fast stuff is on 10g fiber. Only thing on the wifi are the couple of tablets and my phone when it's at home or the office. When I do camera setups, it's almost all PoE and fiber if needed.

And when you talk of "new plants", most people aren't that; they might be a multi-zone heat-pump setup or along those lines.

And BTW, it's a long stretch to describe modbus-rtu as a layer 7 protocol, I'd call it more like layer 2 but it really doesn't fit the ISO stack.
 
Fortunately, I don't need any of that stuff, most people don't.

What you need isn't important. Unless you are 100% self sufficient (food, shelter, care, etc.) you rely on monies and services from others. So, what they want is the issue as it drives what value you can offer them in exchange for those monies/services.

As to your claim of "most people", the statistics belie that. https://www.rubyhome.com/blog/smart-home-stats/ indicates:
  • 7 in 10 homebuyers are actively looking for a smart home.
  • 78% of homebuyers would be willing to pay more for a smart home.
So, unless you plan on dying where you are, you will be influenced by these issues. Increasingly so, especially with the advent of AI "at the edge".

My vaguely-smart 'stat talks to the gravity furnace with, get this TWO WIRES! And it WORKS!.

As did the oil-fired, hot water heat furnace in the 70 year-old home I was raised in. No filters (save the one in the oil line) to replace.

But, cooling was achieved with open windows, fans and, eventually, window-mounted air conditioners. Adjusting the temperatures of each of the areas served by those required making a circuit of the house to tweek each's settings, individually. But, "it works"!

Here, everyone has a furnace (of course). Some larger homes have two systems. Many have evaporative coolers. Most have central air conditioning. (We can ignore the needs of spas and swimming pools, for now).

HVAC control is not a trivial issue as how the environment needs to be "conditioned" depends on the outdoor weather; you'd not run the cooler in "Monsoon" and running the ACbrrr in "Summer" is just wasteful. Switching from one to the other inappropriately is wasteful of energy as well as leading to discomfort. If it's going to be humid tomorrow, then run the ACbrrr as it will be more effective and more responsive than the cooler. If it will be dry/arid, run the cooler.

If windows and doors have been open, then the filters in the AHU will likely need to be replaced more often. Of course, a function of how much air has passed through them.

You can make all of these decisions "manually", EVERY DAY. Or, have something else make them more intelligently leading to more comfort and energy efficiency.

My computers are all plugged in to a 1gT wired network and the fast stuff is on 10g fiber. Only thing on the wifi are the couple of tablets and my phone when it's at home or the office. When I do camera setups, it's almost all PoE and fiber if needed.

I have ~80 drops in my 2-bedroom office. The radio is turned off on the router (there are 4 other APs that serve the private network, here). There are 30 cameras in place. Close to 300 PoE drops powered by a 5KVA UPS backed with a 5KWHr battery pack.

And when you talk of "new plants", most people aren't that; they might be a multi-zone heat-pump setup or along those lines

Here, HVAC systems tend to become inefficient to repair at the ~20 year mark. Service calls quickly dominate the TCO with older kit.
I don't know any of my neighbors who have plants older than ~15 years. Can you even buy R22 anymore? How long do you want to keep nursing a SEER 10 unit along -- especially as electricity costs rise?

And BTW, it's a long stretch to describe modbus-rtu as a layer 7 protocol, I'd call it more like layer 2 but it really doesn't fit the ISO stack.

Layer 2 is a traditional serial port. EIA232 defines layer 1 and the "UARTs" (or SDLCs, etc.) on each end of that cable define Layer 2. A "frame" becomes a single character that the link conveys much like an ethernet frame is a set of octets.

The contents of the frames are meaningless at layer 2. They just get shuffled from point A to point B and nowhere beyond.

Modbus adds the concepts of addressing, data types, function codes, error checking, exceptions, etc. The data that is exchanged has meaning.

"Modbus (or MODBUS) is a client/server data communications protocol in the aplication layer." (from Wikipedia)

By contrast, I can take a UART or a NIC and just move frames between A and B (e.g., AHU and condensing unit) without adhering to any constraints imposed by any of these other higher level protocols. What I choose to pass back and forth need not make sense to anyone or anything other than the devices on the terminals.
 
Y'know, I we haven't been lectured like that in quite a while.

It's not worth my time to take apart the last post, but it looks like maybe half the lines have at least one error, unsupported assumption, misconception, or are contradictory to previous statements

If there are SO many of them, you should be able to identify the faults in at least HALF of those lines with very little effort, right?

Claiming something is "not worth your time" sure sounds like wanting to avoid backing up YOUR claim!

(BTW, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, most (all?) of us on this thread didn't either.)

Ah, the implication being that I did? Be interesting to see your defense to your above claim...
 
Y'know, I we haven't been lectured like that in quite a while.

It's not worth my time to take apart the last post, but it looks like maybe half the lines have at least one error, unsupported assumption, misconception, or are contradictory to previous statements.

(BTW, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, most (all?) of us on this thread didn't either.)
I guess he's the new version of the fringe audiophile cult who think that $5000 cables and cryogenically treated receptacles are the only way to go. Then they get insulted when we don't agree with them. 80 ethernet drops in a two bedroom office? What for?? I haven't put that many in many businesses.

Nope, we didn't just fall off the turnip truck. Most of us have been in business for better than 40-50 years and seen it all. We don't get our information off internet techi toy forums.

-Hal
 
I guess he's the new version of the fringe audiophile cult who think that $5000 cables and cryogenically treated receptacles are the only way to go.
I don't have any "audio gear". But, audio is delivered over IP, here -- as is TV/CATV/video.

Then they get insulted when we don't agree with them. 80 ethernet drops in a two bedroom office? What for?? I haven't put that many in many businesses.

You don't have to agree with me. But, it's folks like me who are designing those products that you will have to deal with. Because of demand from the consumers who want to purchase them. ($300 for something that used to be done with a bimetal strip and mercury switch? A camera and internet connection to replace a door knocker??) Old timers always want to dismiss new technologies -- yet, don't seem to mind benefitting from it when it suits their fancy! (recall the days of "exploratory surgery" replaced with CT and MRI, now? Where do you think those technologies came from?)

Ethernet drops:
  • 6 workstations
  • 11 servers
  • 2 "PCs"
  • 2 printers (color & laser)
  • 6+11 LoM connections for the above
  • 6 UPSs (one for each workstation)
  • 4 scanners (single sheet, B size, film, ADF)
  • 16 node "prototype" as a development system
  • 8 NASs
  • 8 SANs
  • TV
  • 3 docked tablets
Why so much kit? One workstation to design electronic hardware and mechanical assemblies. One for writing and testing software. One for preparing formal documentation. One for preparing multimedia presentations (audio and video). One for "film" production. One with a smattering (but incomplete set) of the tools from each of the above.

Three servers to allow me to verify that my designs will work on a variety of different "computer architectures". One to maintain my databases. The remaining to serve up virtual machines (so I can recreate the development environment in place for any of the products I've designed over the past 5 decades in order to maintain them or "borrow" from them). The SANs and NASs to store the VMs, of course.

The TV so I can preview videos that I've created to see what they look like on "real TVs" instead of computer monitors. The tablets to serve music.

Of course, if its your business to design this sort of kit, you tend to invest in the tools required to do those designs. Electronic kit is cheap. I can get another 1500VA UPS for the cost of its batteries. A server is $5. Disk drives are $1. My time is far from cheap (clients get annoyed if I'm wasting time on things that money can cure: "I won't be able to get BACK to your project for a week as I have to recreate the environment that I used when I created it -- Windows X is no longer current and the versions of all the other tools that I used aren't supported on Windows Y!")

Chances are, you own one (two?) computers and they probably run Windows 11. Anything you did on that old Windows 7 computer you used to have is simply lost (sure glad you saved hardcopies of those tax returns and business records, right?). The idea of actually designing a computer from a collection of chips and then writing the operating system and applications that run on it isn't something you'd even consider -- let alone do several times each year!

Nope, we didn't just fall off the turnip truck. Most of us have been in business for better than 40-50 years and seen it all. We don't get our information off internet techi toy forums.

-Hal
 
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