Can class B contractor sign off on hours?

[YungSparky]

According to some other threads on here, it seems that a Class B contractor can hire non-certified people to do electrical work. The labor code only explicitly requires certification (or apprenticeship or trainee status) if you're working for a C10. A GC told me the same thing ("I can hire whoever I want."). It seems strange, but....anyway.
My question is whether a class B could sign off on the work hours necessary to take the CA certification exam. I had one offer to hire me and let me get my hours in with him, but I don't really understand the legality. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[jaggedben]

I believe the answer is no, they cannot. I would certainly be interested to know if I'm wrong.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

I do not believe so, no.

 

[tortuga]

According to some other threads on here, it seems that a Class B contractor can hire non-certified people to do electrical work. The labor code only explicitly requires certification (or apprenticeship or trainee status) if you're working for a C10. A GC told me the same thing ("I can hire whoever I want."). It seems strange, but....anyway.
My question is whether a class B could sign off on the work hours necessary to take the CA certification exam. I had one offer to hire me and let me get my hours in with him, but I don't really understand the legality. Any help would be appreciated.

My understanding is if you're working under a CA certified journeyman you can register with a apprenticeship program and pay a fee to the state and begin clocking hours towards certification.
I don't think the license of the employer matters, you could be a employee of the state , a large factory , a solar company for example. There are employers that have a certified electrician on staff but don't hold a C10. But most jobs you'll find are with a C10.
As long as they keep the general B loop hole open you could do electrical work your entire career under a general B and never get certified, but you wont gain credit for those hours.

 

[jaggedben]

My understanding is if you're working under a CA certified journeyman you can register with a apprenticeship program and pay a fee to the state and begin clocking hours towards certification.
I don't think the license of the employer matters, you could be a employee of the state , a large factory , a solar company for example. There are employers that have a certified electrician on staff but don't hold a C10. But most jobs you'll find are with a C10.
As long as they keep the general B loop hole open you could do electrical work your entire career under a general B and never get certified, but you wont gain credit for those hours.

The C10 license matters in that C10s are required to have all electrical work done by only journeyman, or journeyman with apprentices at ratio of no less than 1:1. Otherwise I believe you are correct. But good luck finding a journeyman who is not working for a C-10. And as far as OP goes, regardless of what the law says, I'm pretty sure DIR isn't accepting applications that are signed off by a B. But I'd be happy to find out I'm wrong.

 

[mtnelect]

You must be enrolled in a structured apprenticeship program that is approved by the State of California.

 

[tortuga]

The C10 license matters in that C10s are required to have all electrical work done by only journeyman, or journeyman with apprentices at ratio of no less than 1:1. Otherwise I believe you are correct. But good luck finding a journeyman who is not working for a C-10.

I think @Jpflex was or is in a program and working under a journeyman at a mine, but yeah its rare cases not working for a C10, large factory's , government agencies, a mine, or a general B that happens to employ a certified J man I am sure they exist.

And as far as OP goes, regardless of what the law says, I'm pretty sure DIR isn't accepting applications that are signed off by a B.

I think you have to be in a program first, then certified J man signs off on the hours, or perhaps you get the acutal time verified by your HR person the the certified J man verifies experience categories.

 

[Jpflex]

My understanding is if you're working under a CA certified journeyman you can register with a apprenticeship program and pay a fee to the state and begin clocking hours towards certification.
I don't think the license of the employer matters, you could be a employee of the state , a large factory , a solar company for example. There are employers that have a certified electrician on staff but don't hold a C10. But most jobs you'll find are with a C10.
As long as they keep the general B loop hole open you could do electrical work your entire career under a general B and never get certified, but you wont gain credit for those hours.

Although ca says for apprrntices to pay for an electrician training card while working under c10 and taking classes, i thaught your hour working will count and is varified by the social security administration employrment history?

 

[Jpflex]

I think @Jpflex was or is in a program and working under a journeyman at a mine, but yeah its rare cases not working for a C10, large factory's , government agencies, a mine, or a general B that happens to employ a certified J man I am sure they exist.

I think you have to be in a program first, then certified J man signs off on the hours, or perhaps you get the acutal time verified by your HR person the the certified J man verifies experience categories.

Yes iwas woring as the only electrician at a mine until the company wwent bankrupt. Im now working at solar power plants and large inverters. The licenses i have is fcc cet electrical and ase electrical but not the journeyman license yet. I hope my work hours count

 

[tortuga]

I hope my work hours count

So your not a trainee?
If you take a look at the current application for certification there are 6 ways you can qualify, option 5 is what I am framiliar with enroll in approved classes then you register as a trainee with DIR.
I don't think you *need* to be employed by a C10 to start clocking hours as a trainee, you need to work under a certified electrician though. If you do want to work for a C10 you have to be a trainee (or certified).
You could work for a C7 or the mine or the solar company (C46) as a trainee but I think you would need to work under a certified electrician for the hours to count under option (5).
Now there is option (3) on the application which references 291.1 (C) which says:

(c) Where the applicant can show other experience, including military experience or relevant work for a low voltage systems contractor holding a C-7 license, the applicant may apply to the Chief DAS for credit toward some or all of the experience required under Section 291.1(a)(2) The Chief DAS may grant credit if the Chief determines that the experience is comparable to experience for which credit would be granted under Section 291.1(a)(1) or Section 291.1(a)(2).

I am not framiliar with anyone that has done that, I'd be curious to see how that process works.
It would be interesting to know if any other forum members on here have done that.

 

[jaggedben]

Thanks for the links. All the work experience options besides option (c) that you quoted above require the work experience to be for a C-10 contractor. I'd be curious if anyone has has success applying to the Chief (does that require extra action?) for other electrical work, particularly if performed for a C-46.

 

[tortuga]

Thanks for the links. All the work experience options besides option (c) that you quoted above require the work experience to be for a C-10 contractor. I'd be curious if anyone has has success applying to the Chief (does that require extra action?) for other electrical work, particularly if performed for a C-46.

Good catch I had to take a closer look at 291.1(a) and yeah its interesting there is

291.1(a) In order to be certified, an applicant must have the required experience as set forth herein, and pass a certification examination under Section 291.3. An applicant must provide proof of experience which may be done by showing:

1. successful completion of an apprenticeship program ... or
2. on-the-job experience, as follows ... General Electrician: 8000 hours of work for a C-10 electrical contractor ...

So perhaps if your in a "apprenticeship program" you can gain hours by not working for a C-10, (like a B,C47,C7, or the state) and you'd have to check if those community collage classes your enrolled in are in fact a
"apprenticeship program approved by the California Apprenticeship Council, the federal Bureau of Apprenticeship Training, or a state apprenticeship council authorized by the federal Bureau of Apprenticeship Training to approve apprenticeship programs, in the classification for which certification is sought" or are they just classes for a trainee whom is employed by a C-10.
(And do they actually check any of that.)

I know as of 10 years ago you could get the hours by working under a Certified electrician that was not a C-10 (the state of CA is not a C10 and employs certified electricians), but seems like you need to first be in a Apprenticeship program or the hours don't count.
And the funny thing is (last I checked) I don't think you need to be Certified to take the C-10 test and work for yourself, and if you always do at least 3 trades you have the general B loophole and can just do electrical work as a general B.

 

[jaggedben]

Yeah, if you could show you worked under a certified journeyman at an employer that wasn't a C-10 I bet they'd be willing to consider that. Not so sure about doing bonafide electrical work for a non-C10 employer where there were no journeyman.

 

[tortuga]

Yeah, if you could show you worked under a certified journeyman at an employer that wasn't a C-10 I bet they'd be willing to consider that. Not so sure about doing bonafide electrical work for a non-C10 employer where there were no journeyman.

Yeah since the OP @YungSparky lists his occupation as "apprentice" I imagine he is already in a program or school and needing to accrue hours. If there is a Certified journeyman at the General B and the program is OK with it he'd be good to go.

@Jpflex will likely need to try 291.1 (C) if he wants to get Certified.

 

[Jpflex]

So your not a trainee?
If you take a look at the current application for certification there are 6 ways you can qualify, option 5 is what I am framiliar with enroll in approved classes then you register as a trainee with DIR.
I don't think you *need* to be employed by a C10 to start clocking hours as a trainee, you need to work under a certified electrician though. If you do want to work for a C10 you have to be a trainee (or certified).
You could work for a C7 or the mine or the solar company (C46) as a trainee but I think you would need to work under a certified electrician for the hours to count under option (5).
Now there is option (3) on the application which references 291.1 (C) which says:

I am not framiliar with anyone that has done that, I'd be curious to see how that process works.
It would be interesting to know if any other forum members on here have done that.

Back when i apprenticed part time for 9 months i paid for an ET card electrician trainee while taking courses. I could not afford to continue doing this as i also had to use my own truck and gas to follow the boss to project sites making littke money.

I havnt done this since. Instead i sudy and read many electrical books including the nec handbook. There is a licensed journeyman at one power plant i work in and i often do work along with him. He works directly for the power plant while i work as their contractor to troubleshoot and repair their watrentied solar inverters

 

[Jpflex]

Good catch I had to take a closer look at 291.1(a) and yeah its interesting there is

1. successful completion of an apprenticeship program ... or
2. on-the-job experience, as follows ... General Electrician: 8000 hours of work for a C-10 electrical contractor ...

So perhaps if your in a "apprenticeship program" you can gain hours by not working for a C-10, (like a B,C47,C7, or the state) and you'd have to check if those community collage classes your enrolled in are in fact a
"apprenticeship program approved by the California Apprenticeship Council, the federal Bureau of Apprenticeship Training, or a state apprenticeship council authorized by the federal Bureau of Apprenticeship Training to approve apprenticeship programs, in the classification for which certification is sought" or are they just classes for a trainee whom is employed by a C-10.
(And do they actually check any of that.)

I know as of 10 years ago you could get the hours by working under a Certified electrician that was not a C-10 (the state of CA is not a C10 and employs certified electricians), but seems like you need to first be in a Apprenticeship program or the hours don't count.
And the funny thing is (last I checked) I don't think you need to be Certified to take the C-10 test and work for yourself, and if you always do at least 3 trades you have the general B loophole and can just do electrical work as a general B.

Option 2 can be argued that wlrking with a journey.an is not listed

 

[manny73]

The State requires that you have four years of journey-level experience in electrical work. You would not need to be have been a Certified Electrician. Journey-level does not mean that you went through a union. It simply means that you are an experienced worker and not a trainee, fully qualified and able to perform the trade(s) without supervision. Note: Self-employed experience will count even if it was working in California illegally. The State would rather you get legal than continue to perform work unregulated.

The above was pulled from a licensing school.

You must have at least four (4) years of experience, in the class you are applying for, to qualify to take the examination. Credit for experience is given only for experience at a journey level or as a foreman, supervising employee, contractor, or owner-builder. These are defined as follows:

• A journeyman is a person who is a fully qualified, experienced worker (as opposed to a trainee, helper, laborer, assistant, apprentice, etc.) and is able to perform the trade without supervision, or a person who has completed an apprenticeship program.
• A foreman or supervising employee is a person who has the knowledge and skills of a journeyman and directly supervises physical construction.
• A contractor is a person who is currently a licensed California contractor, a former licensed California contractor, personnel of record on a California license, or an out-of-state licensed contractor. A contractor has the skills necessary to manage the daily activities of a construction business, including field supervision.
• An owner-builder is a person who has the knowledge and skills of a journeyman and who performs work on their own property. Owner-builders must complete and submit a Construction Project Experience form for each project.

REMEMBER all experience claims must be verified by a qualified and responsible person, such as an employer, contractor, foreman/supervisor, fellow employee, other journeyman, union representative, building inspector, architect, engineer, or homeowner.

The person verifying your claim must have firsthand knowledge of your experience--that is, they must have observed the work that you have done--and must complete the experience certification portion of the application. Even if you provide a certification of your experience, be prepared to furnish documentation of any experience you claim on the application whenever such documentation is requested. The failure to provide this documentation will result in the return or voiding of your application or denial of the license.

And this is from the CSLB website.
For these 2 reasons I decided to get my experience signed from a general contractor that I did work for, and I got my C-10.
So to answer your question, yes you can have a GC sign off your hours for your exam.