Can I install GFCI receptacle on GFCI/AFCI breaker

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Malywr

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey USA
I wonder what would happen if I install GFCI receptacle on GFCI/AFCI breaker
I am troubleshooting floor heating thermostat appears to be dead. When I did some research I found out that some of floor radiant thermostat has already gfci in it. New code requires circuit to be protected by AFCI. If I install new breaker GFCI/AFCI and thermostat has own GFCI Protection would that cause problem?
 
I come across this when I change out panels. I install GFCI breakers on all panel changes for 15-20 single pole, just for my own satisfaction. So I have found that when testing a circuit with a GFCI already on it. The breaker will trip first. I have not delved into why. Just something I noticed. I Do offer to change the GFCI receptacle out but they never want to.
So to answer your question I have not seen or had a problem yet.
 
Jraef said:
Meaning that when one of them trips, you have two things to check on, and because GFCIs require monthly testing, you now have twice as many tests to perform.
Click to expand...
? I've seen some gfci marketed as "self testing", are they really self testing were it doesn't need human intervention to ensure functioning, or what does it mean?
480sparky said:
Why install a GFCI/AFCI breaker if an AFCI breaker is all that's required?
Click to expand...
Recently I've used that because because a straight AFCI wasn't available (covid) and customer want the job done and was willing to pay the extra $5 for dual rated.
 
Fred B said:
? I've seen some gfci marketed as "self testing", are they really self testing were it doesn't need human intervention to ensure functioning, or what does it mean?

Recently I've used that because because a straight AFCI wasn't available (covid) and customer want the job done and was willing to pay the extra $5 for dual rated.
Click to expand...
UL has issued major revisions to UL 943, the standard for GFCI safety that takes effect on June 29, 2015, including:

1. Auto-Monitoring or Self-Test Function: This function allows for periodic, automatic testing of the ability of the GFCI to respond to a ground fault. If the Self-Test function detects a problem, the GFCI must deny power or provide visual and/or audible indication.

2. Reverse line-load miswire function - repeated: If the line cable is wired to the load terminals of a receptacle GFCI, power to the receptacle face will be denied. This requirement applies to the initial installation and any subsequent re-installations.

To maintain UL certification, all manufacturers must meet these revisions with GFCIs produced after June 28, 2015. Legrand's new 1597/2097 Pass & Seymour Self-Test GFCI Receptacles meet these requirements.
 
electrofelon said:
Wow, what is that like a $500 adder? Do you give the customer a choice?
Click to expand...
No, I inform them that Its Not mandatory, but that I won’t do it and they can get another EC. I tell them that with the shoddy wiring homeowners and handyman do around here it’s good protection for personal safety to have them. I don’t know what might be burried somewhere under the house or attic that could pose a threat to someones Safety under the right circumstance.
I could be completely in the wrong but I sleep better so I don’t care.
 
AC\DC said:
No, I inform them that Its Not mandatory, but that I won’t do it and they can get another EC. I tell them that with the shoddy wiring homeowners and handyman do around here it’s good protection for personal safety to have them. I don’t know what might be burried somewhere under the house or attic that could pose a threat to someones Safety under the right circumstance.
I could be completely in the wrong but I sleep better so I don’t care.
Click to expand...
Are you putting in the dual AFCI/GFCI breaker or just the gfci as you point to "shoddy wiring" as point of safety concern?
 
AC\DC said:
No, I inform them that Its Not mandatory, but that I won’t do it and they can get another EC. I tell them that with the shoddy wiring homeowners and handyman do around here it’s good protection for personal safety to have them. I don’t know what might be burried somewhere under the house or attic that could pose a threat to someones Safety under the right circumstance.
I could be completely in the wrong but I sleep better so I don’t care.
Click to expand...

How often do you run into circuits where the GFCI wont hold due to tied neutrals or other issues? I often find putting AFCI and/or GFCI on existing circuits to be problematic and try to avoid it.
 
electrofelon said:
How often do you run into circuits where the GFCI wont hold due to tied neutrals or other issues? I often find putting AFCI and/or GFCI on existing circuits to be problematic and try to avoid it.
Click to expand...
Not that often and if I do find one. I inform them of a problem and I can fix it or install a regulate breaker with a write Up of the issue and owner did not want to address.
 
AC\DC said:
......... or install a regulate breaker with a write Up of the issue and owner did not want to address.
Click to expand...

So you're documenting a known issue along with proof you didn't fix it? You're asking for trouble with that. This is how Very Rich Lawyers are made.
 
480sparky said:
So you're documenting a known issue along with proof you didn't fix it? You're asking for trouble with that. This is how Very Rich Lawyers are made.
Click to expand...
Even if owner refused to fix? I can't work for free? I guess ill just right up left De-energized from now on.
If that won't work then how to you take care of situation like that?
 
AC\DC said:
Even if owner refused to fix? I can't work for free? I guess ill just right up left De-energized from now on.
If that won't work then how to you take care of situation like that?
Click to expand...

You installed an AFCI/GFCI breaker and found an issue. YOU changed it out to a regular breaker to keep the circuit energized without locating and fixing the issue.

YOU are the professional here, not the homeowner.

You should educate the customer about the possibility of this happening. You should have a procedure in place PRIOR to accepting the project on what to do if the breaker won't stay on.
 
Thinking about searching the wiring to find out why an AFCI or GFCI won't hold makes me a little ill. :sick: This is why I avoid adding GFCI or AFCI to existing circuits unless I am forced to. My panel changes never add more than six feet to the wires if I can possibly help it.
 
AC\DC said:
Not that often and if I do find one. I inform them of a problem and I can fix it or install a regulate breaker with a write Up of the issue and owner did not want to address.
Click to expand...
480sparky said:
So you're documenting a known issue along with proof you didn't fix it? You're asking for trouble with that. This is how Very Rich Lawyers are made.
Click to expand...
I have to agree with the liability issue that would arise, if code requirements are that a gfci or afci be installed and issue is directly related to said device being installed not to related to error in installation I would inform owner of remedy and cost to repair, I'm definitely not removing the device as that would jeopardize my licence and insurance. If owner doesn't want me to make the repair they are welcome to find someone else to repair or jeopardize their licence or insurance, I may even leave it for the inspector to red flag. That is the positive of getting permits and inspections for the work scope, it protects me.
 
Fred B said:
I if code requirements are that a gfci or afci be installed and issue is directly related to said device being installed.
Click to expand...
Are state has amendments that we don't need to AFCI protection when doing panel changes. SO we can install just standard breakers as what was originally there, so I would not be violating the code if I switched back to standard breaker.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top