CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

[Cheryl Smith]

We have wired a remodeled house. The lighting specifications were prepared by the home owner/builder. It called for IC Rated can lights to be installed throughout the house including 6 of them in the garage. We installed everything according to specs and passed our rough inspection with raving reviews from the rough inspector. We have now finished the job and everything is sheetrocked and painted. The final inspector NOW says that we have to change the six can lights in the garage to Fire Rated can lights for fire safety purposes, which means tearing out the walls again. Someone has to be financially responsible for this undertaking. I completely understand the final inspector's position on this issue however, since the change was not requested on the rough inspection, we continued wiring the house to completion. We have never encountered an issue such as this before and neither has the general contractor. Is there an National Electrical Code stating that can lights installed in a garage that is under a living space need to be fire rated or is this specific to that city? Also, isn't it the job of the rough inspector to catch these problems at the time of the rough inspection and can the city by liable for the cost of re-doing the work? Please advise as to what recourse do I have, if any. Thanks.

[ July 20, 2005, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Cheryl Smith ]

 

[celtic]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

Originally posted by Cheryl Smith:
..we have to change the six can lights in the garage to Fire Rated can lights for fire safety purposes, which means tearing out the walls again. Someone has to be financially responsible for this undertaking.

A qualified EC would have seen that coming before installing the cans in a fire rated ceiling.
A 2x2 area, or so, about each fixture should allow plenty of room to make the neccessary changes to become code compliant. It shouldn't be neccessary to gut the whole garage...based on the information given.

Originally posted by Cheryl Smith:

....The lighting specifications were prepared by the home owner/builder....We have never encountered an issue such as this before and neither has the general contractor.

...and that is why none of you are electrical contractors. No offense, but it's the truth - I wouldn't try and be a CFO w/o proper training/education.

Originally posted by Cheryl Smith:
Is there an National Electrical Code stating that can lights installed in a garage that is under a living space need to be fire rated or is this specific to that city?

While it is true that codes can vary from city to city, the NEC is "not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons." {NEC 90.1(C)}

300.21 Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion.
...Openings around electrical penetrations through fire-resistant-rated walls, partitions, floors, or ceilings shall be firestopped using approved methods to maintain the fire resistance rating.

The cans penetrate a fire rated ceiling and the penetrations must be effectively sealed.

Originally posted by Cheryl Smith:
Also, isn't it the job of the rough inspector to catch these problems at the time of the rough inspection and can the city by liable for the cost of re-doing the work?

While it *may* be debatable that is was his job - it is the ECs job to install a code compliant system. I don't think the city will be writing any checks to the Smith family anytime soon.

Originally posted by Cheryl Smith:
Please advise as to what recourse do I have, if any. Thanks.

The recourse I see is to make your installation code compliant...the AHJ may "work with you" if treat him with respect. He has probably come across this same scenario before and may have a quick, cheap, easy solution for you.

Just my opinion.

Code Articles cited are from 2002 NEC...I do not know what code year your particular town has accepted.

[ July 20, 2005, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: celtic ]

 

[bthielen]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

celtic,

This does raise an interesting question. As part of the requirements for electrical work, one must file affidavit and have a rough-in inspection completed before covering the work. EC or not, if a code violation is missed during the rough-in and it passes, isn't there some sort of grandfather clause that would wave the need to redo the work after the finish inspection? What if the code changes between rough-in and final? Are the new codes then enforced?

Bob

 

[Cheryl Smith]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

Celtic,

Thanks for your reply. However, you failed to answer the question at hand which was shouldn't the city have caught this error at the time of the rough inspection? Isn't that what an inspection if for?

 

[brian john]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

IMO NO, the installing contractor SHOULD know what is required. This does happen from time to time, unfortunately. And when it happens we, you, they; bite the bullet and make the required repair.

 

[roger]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

Cheryl, the bottom line is an inspector is not responsible for code compliance, the EC is.

Inspectors are looking at overall wiring methods and may or may not catch every item until the finish product is looked at.

Bob,

if a code violation is missed during the rough-in and it passes, isn't there some sort of grandfather clause that would wave the need to redo the work after the finish inspection?

that doesn't make sense, would you have a known violation (remember the NEC and most codes are for safety and the well being of people and property) be ignored because an early inspection missed a hazard to some ones life or family, yet was caught on the final?


Back to the question at hand, there are add on "Thermal Protection" devices that could be considered.

Roger

[ July 20, 2005, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[celtic]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

Originally posted by Cheryl Smith:
However, you failed to answer the question at hand which was shouldn't the city have caught this error at the time of the rough inspection?

While it *may* be debatable that is was his job - it is the ECs job to install a code compliant system.

You may not like the answer, but it IS the answer.

Originally posted by Cheryl Smith:
Isn't that what an inspection if for?

..and this is where the debate begins

It is unreasonable to assume that the AHJ will look at every box, every connection, every wire. Imagine the cost and expense to you(whether HO or EC) - in the terms of permit fees...as you are paying these fees.
The onus is with the installer - whether HO or EC.
You may not like this answer, either - but that is the way it is.


*********************8

Originally posted by bthielen:

EC or not, if a code violation is missed during the rough-in and it passes, isn't there some sort of grandfather clause that would wave the need to redo the work after the finish inspection?

I would think the grandfather would be working with the AHJ to resolve the issue at the least amount of time and money.

Originally posted by bthielen:

What if the code changes between rough-in and final? Are the new codes then enforced?

The code that was in effect when the plans were approved is the "bible". The code changes every three..I have been on jobs that took 5 years to complete (3 code cycles).

 

[petersonra]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

seems to me that you might be able to build a fire proof drywall box and install above the cans if you had access to the area above the ceiling.

i have seen this done before. they built the box and glued it in place with construction adhesive over the light fixture.

government inspectors work for the government. their only responsibility is to the agency they work for.

the EC is responsible for the electrical work they did, and they should be the ones cleaning up the non-compliant work they did.

 

[southernboys]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

Imo opinion you can not expect the ahj to catch every code violation. This is why you hire a qualified ec. The ec should have seen this as a firerated cieling or gc and should have pointed this out to homeowner. My question is how can you tell at trim out time if the cans are firerated or not?

 

[sandsnow]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

The inspector should have caught this one. It was starring him right in the face.
The requirement (from the building code) to require a fire resistant seperation between a garage and living space has been around forever.

Yes the contractor is responsible to build/install per code, the inspector is there to catch what he missed.

Yes the contractor should know what is required, but in my experience they rely on the inspector to let them know what is required.
If something slips by on too many jobs, they think it's code legal.

 

[petersonra]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

Originally posted by sandsnow:
If something slips by on too many jobs, they think it's code legal.

Unfortunately, people tend to operate this way. I get tired of hearing people say "I have been here 15 years and we have always done it that way".

My response is generally something along the lines of "Don't you think it's about time we did it right then?".

 

[celtic]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

Originally posted by petersonra:
I get tired of hearing people say "I have been here 15 years and we have always done it that way".

My response is generally something along the lines of "Don't you think it's about time we did it right then?".

My canned (no pun intended) response is:
People also thought the world was flat, what's your point?

 

[charlie b]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

I once read that when Fr. Hesburgh first took over as President of the University of Notre Dame, one of his first official acts was to fire the athletic director. He was told something to the effect that "you can't fire me, I've got 15 years of experience in this job." Fr. Hesburgh responded, "No you don't. You have one year of experience that has been repeated 14 times."

 

[bthielen]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

I see where you are coming from Roger.

When it comes to law, ignorance is not a valid defense. In other words, it is our responsibility to know the law and abide by it. It is not the judges, jurys, courts, inspectors, etc., reaponsibility to educate us. If we failed to comply we also have a responsibility to make the necessary corrections, convenient or not. Mistakes will be made and missed by the inspectors. Some of you inspectors out there may be able to answer this. Are you the liable party if you miss a non-compliant situation?

Bob

 

[apauling]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

bob: no.

 

[brian john]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

Charlie hope this one is not copy righted, becasue I want to use it.

"No you don't. You have one year of experience that has been repeated 14 times."

 

[charlie b]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

If it is copyrighted, it is not by me. I read it in a book. It was quoting the speaker, and I don't think you can copyright a spoken quote.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

I would suggest using the PROGRESS 'Firebox' cans for this application.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

So cut open a large enough area to change the can or fire block it.How would you feel if a few years from now someone dies cause of a fire that could have been controlled had you followed code.The inspector missed it and now he caught it.He can not ignore it without leaving himself open to liability.Now if his record shows he misses things often then perhaps he should be let go.Lets face it you missed it too.

 

[celtic]

Re: CAN LIGHTS INSTALLED IN A GARAGE

I think Mrs. Smith did not like the answers given and has left the building.