Can someone identify this setup and what I need

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yar786

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Hi, I'm looking for some help. My electrician seems a little confused and maybe it's time to hire someone else but I wanted some advise before I go spend a ton.

I have a 3 phase 240v panel that has a.c., and 6 frozen yogurt machines hooked up. Just before plugging the machines I read the label on the machine said 208v -230v. I was assured by the previous licensed electrian that they would work. The tech that works on these machines said no I need to step down the voltage.

So now we are trying to find a buck transformer for each of my 6 machines rather than lower voltage to the whole panel because the a.c. is on the same panel.

1.I need help identify if I have delta or Wye.
2.I need help finding the right part to order.

Machines are 208v-230v, 5kv, 16 max amps each.
Current voltage at my outlets is between 240-245

kXPAUb
 
Since you are asking advice and not "how to" we will allow your question (the forum rules do not allow us to give DIY advice).

I agree with the electrician but, I would go with the technician or you will assume all warranties and any future repairs will be on you.

If your existing system is three phase it's Delta

Roger
 
I agree with Roger they will likely work without incident but warranty might be an issue. I would consider a 240-208Y/120 volt transformer and a new 208Y/120 volt panel to feed the 6 machines.
 
yar786 said:
My electrician seems a little confused and maybe it's time to hire someone else but I wanted some advise before I go spend a ton.

I have a 3 phase 240v panel that has a.c., and 6 frozen yogurt machines hooked up. Just before plugging the machines I read the label on the machine said 208v -230v. I was assured by the previous licensed electrian that they would work. The tech that works on these machines said no I need to step down the voltage.

kXPAUb
Click to expand...

Before spending money on transformers get in touch with the manufacturer and make sure they are needed.

Normally a machine that has 208-230V label will work just fine one 240 volts. The electrician is not confused, this is the way things normally work.

But there are always exceptions to any rule. I would talk to the manufacturer and see if this will void the warranty.

You can get better information on a piece of equipment if you give manufacturer and model number.
 
It is common for services to be labeled "240 volts" and motors to be labeled "230 volts". When motors are drawing current, there will be voltage drop in the wiring and the actual voltage at the motor will be less than the voltage at the service entrance.

Something else to watch out for: Many 240-volt 3-phase services do not have three identical phases. Two of the three legs can deliver the full rated current but the third leg cannot. Such a service works OK when most of the load is single phase and only a small amount of three-phase current is used, as in a house or small commercial building. You might overload the third leg by hooking up 96 amps of refrigeration machinery. Your electrician is not in a position to answer this question; you'll need to ask the power company. (POCO)
 
drcampbell said:
It is common for services to be labeled "240 volts" and motors to be labeled "230 volts". When motors are drawing current, there will be voltage drop in the wiring and the actual voltage at the motor will be less than the voltage at the service entrance.

Something else to watch out for: Many 240-volt 3-phase services do not have three identical phases. Two of the three legs can deliver the full rated current but the third leg cannot. Such a service works OK when most of the load is single phase and only a small amount of three-phase current is used, as in a house or small commercial building. You might overload the third leg by hooking up 96 amps of refrigeration machinery. Your electrician is not in a position to answer this question; you'll need to ask the power company. (POCO)
Click to expand...

240V is referred to as the “Distribution Voltage”, 230V is the “Utilization Voltage”, meaning the intentional design voltage of the end use devices, because it is assumed there will be voltage drop at the terminals. These are ANSI standards.

The second paragraph is almost backward. If it is a 240V 3 phase 4 wire service, that is intended for users with PREDOMINANTLY 3 phase 230V loads and single phase 230V loads are fine so long as the electrician properly balances them across all 3 phases. The 4 wire version allows for a SMALL AMOUNT of 115V single phase loads, it is the excess 115V loads that will cause problems because they can only be connected to two of the 3 phases, therefore they are inherently unbalanced wrt the 3 phase service.

As to the original issue, if the manufacturer put 208-230V on their nameplate, they cannot make claims against their warranty if you connect it to a 240V system, regardless of what their technician may think. It would be fraudulent. But just to clarify, most equipment in that voltage class is built for 230V and tested to allow it to operate from a 208V supply. Equipment designed to ONLY work on 208V supplies is typically rated at 200V as the Utilization Voltage. You are fine.
 
Jraef said:
As to the original issue, if the manufacturer put 208-230V on their nameplate, they cannot make claims against their warranty if you connect it to a 240V system, regardless of what their technician may think. It would be fraudulent. But just to clarify, most equipment in that voltage class is built for 230V and tested to allow it to operate from a 208V supply. Equipment designed to ONLY work on 208V supplies is typically rated at 200V as the Utilization Voltage. You are fine.
Click to expand...

The only reason I suggested he contact the manufacturer is that a lot of this equipment comes out of China these days ( cheaper than domestic). Sometimes the name plate of such equipment doesn't mean a darn thing (just there for show).

I wouldn't think the Tech knows what he's talking about either but I would want to make sure with 6 machines. If they have had trouble with machines running at 240V I would assume the lable is wrong.

If a machine is made in China it can be hard to get in touch with the manufacturer because they change hands many times before they are imported but it can be done if persistant.
 
Thanks folks,

These are Taylor high end froyo machine just out of warranty but I purchased them brand new for 17k each which is why I'm so cautious about making a wrong move could cost me so much. I've lost a lot of money trusting people who tell me to just plug it in so I appreciate everyone's helpl. I moved locations hence the new setup. I'll call the manufacturer on Monday.

Quick followup, how can I tell it's a delta setup? I have 4 wires incoming to the 3 phase panel. None of them are ground because it's grounded outside before it comes to the panel. If i do order a transformer they usually want to know if I have 3 hot or 4 hot. Here's a picture of the panel before the panel was rewired.
https://imgur.com/a/iARQs

http://www.larsonelectronics.com/p-149091-.aspx?keyword=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_abVqYzq1wIVBqrsCh2urgNHEAkYASABEgLxU_D_BwE
 
As a side note my electrician will be back to ground the 3 phase panel to the Building. I'm not doing any of the work myself. I'm in a time crunch for my grand opening which is why I'm reaching out to you to help speed up the process
 
Those pictures do nothing to tell us if you have a Hi Leg Delta, Open or Closed. One of those conductors should be taped orange for newer installation and yours looks very new. Back up and let us see a picture of the whole panel.

Have your electrician check the voltage as you watch.

I suspect you have a 208 Wye but my test leads won’t reach that far.

Edit: slow fingers lose again
 
ptonsparky said:
Those pictures do nothing to tell us if you have a Hi Leg Delta, Open or Closed. One of those conductors should be taped orange for newer installation and yours looks very new. Back up and let us see a picture of the whole panel.

Have your electrician check the voltage as you watch.

I suspect you have a 208 Wye but my test leads won’t reach that far.

Edit: slow fingers lose again
Click to expand...

He already said the voltage was 240V so I'm sure he has a Delta w/high leg
 
Little Bill said:
He already said the voltage was 240V so I'm sure he has a Delta w/high leg
Click to expand...

If it actually is 208 volts then this entire thread is moot but I can see asking the question because of the red tape in lieu of the required orange identification. :)
 
yar786 said:
Hi, I'm looking for some help. My electrician seems a little confused and maybe it's time to hire someone else but I wanted some advise before I go spend a ton.

I have a 3 phase 240v panel that has a.c., and 6 frozen yogurt machines hooked up. Just before plugging the machines I read the label on the machine said 208v -230v. I was assured by the previous licensed electrian that they would work. The tech that works on these machines said no I need to step down the voltage.

So now we are trying to find a buck transformer for each of my 6 machines rather than lower voltage to the whole panel because the a.c. is on the same panel.

1.I need help identify if I have delta or Wye.
2.I need help finding the right part to order.

Machines are 208v-230v, 5kv, 16 max amps each.
Current voltage at my outlets is between 240-245

kXPAUb
Click to expand...

If you have typical supply system and measure that voltage you about have to have a delta secondary on the supply transformer. A wye system with 240 volts between phase conductors would run about 139 volts to neutral - a little high for 120 volt loads.
 
yar786 said:
I can ask the electrician to take the cover and test again but he checked the outlets in front of me and he was getting 240-245v 3 phase. I'm pretty sure it's a 240v panel and the colors do need to be changed according to him.

https://imgur.com/a/jEJoO
Click to expand...

The photo in post #9 is a different panel. :?

Yes, it's a 3Ø, 4 wire Delta system which has a high leg with a voltage of ~208 volts to ground, and the other two phases will be 120 volts to ground and all three will be 240 volts phase to phase. From the photo there are other problems with the panel that your electrician should address.

Now that we've confirmed that you need to find out if the machines can safely operate at 240 volts or you need to provide a transformer to get down to 208 volts.
 
Been through this before. Sometimes they think 208-230V means the lower and upper voltage limit (was told this nonsense by field rep but not by factory design engineer). Anything else is mis-labeling or confusion.

What that label means is equipment nominal voltage. It can operate on 208 or 240 volt systems (230 nominal rated equipment can run on 240 volt system nominal like 460V motors on 480V systems).

Some equipment may need a jumper moved but they should be slash labeled like 208/230.

There are several standards that cover this labeling and one is some refrigeration or chiller compressor association but I can't recall off the top of my head.
 
yar786 said:
I can ask the electrician to take the cover and test again but he checked the outlets in front of me and he was getting 240-245v 3 phase. I'm pretty sure it's a 240v panel and the colors do need to be changed according to him.

https://imgur.com/a/jEJoO
Click to expand...

That’s better. Not as new as I thought.

Looks like you and your electrician have more to think about than wire colors and Delta vs Wye.
 
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