Can someone identify this setup and what I need

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yar786 said:
I have a 3 phase 240v panel that has a.c., and 6 frozen yogurt machines hooked up.


Current voltage at my outlets is between 240-245

kXPAUb
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ptonsparky said:
Question 1 in the OP asks for help in determining Wye or Delta.
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The system can not be a Wye measuring 240 V

yar786 said:
I can ask the electrician to take the cover and test again but he checked the outlets in front of me and he was getting 240-245v 3 phase. I'm pretty sure it's a 240v panel and the colors do need to be changed according to him.
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The colors do not need to be changed, B, R, Bl was common for a Delta High leg system in the past and if it's existing it should remain. If you notice the skipped places in the panel it's the high leg buss and can not supply a 120V circuit but it's fine for Phase - Phase circuits.

Roger
 
I missed the white branch circuit conductors on circuits 5 and 15, these conductors should be changed.

Roger
 
Here are some notes I made a while back:

208/230: 208 OR 230 nominal. Adjustment needed (jumpers, etc.) for the selected nominal (standard +/- tolerances apply).

208-230: 208 nominal to 230 nominal with no adjustment needed (standard +/- tolerances apply). Some manufacturers state that 208 is the minimum and no -10% tolerance is given (probably -5% because 230 volt motors used). Some manufacturers may require that certain internal components like control transformers be adjusted for the nominal operating voltage so refer to the installation manual.

mivey said:
There are several standards that cover this labeling and one is some refrigeration or chiller compressor association but I can't recall off the top of my head.
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From Table 1, Note 4 in "Section 4. Voltage Rating Requirements" of AHRI Std 110:

ANSI/AHRI STANDARD 110-2012 said:
Motors are usually guaranteed to operate satisfactorily and to deliver their full power at the rated frequency and at a voltage 10% above or below their rating, or at the rated voltage. Some U.S. single-phase HVAC components that are dual-voltage rated (e.g., 208/230-1-60) may carry a minus 5% voltage allowance from the lower voltage rating of 208 volts.

Equipment having more than one marked rated voltage, which is permitted to be connected to these voltages without individual adjustment, should have the voltages separated by a hyphen.
Example: 208-230V; The equipment may be operated at these utilization voltages or at voltages between these values without individually adjusting for the difference between them.

Equipment having more than one marked rated voltage, which requires rewiring or other adjustments made by the installer to the equipment to permit connection to these voltages, should have the voltages separated by an oblique stroke.
Example: 208/230V; The equipment may be operated at these utilization voltages only if the installer makes the proper wiring or adjustment to the equipment for each voltage as specified by the manufacturer.
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More from AHRI 110:
4.2.2 Range A-Utilization Voltage. User systems are to be designed and thus must operate acceptably between the minimum and maximum Utilization Voltage Range A.
Utilization equipment shall C throughout this range, per the applicable AHRI Standard.

208: minimum utilization voltage = 187 volts
240: maximum utilization voltage = 252 volts
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So a 208-230 volt nameplate on equipment says it SHALL "be designed and rated to give acceptable performance" from 187 to 252 volts at the utilization equipment.

From AO Smith (but not saying a 230 volt motor operated at 208 volts will not run hotter):
Some motors are rated 208-230 volts. These motors will operate in a range from 208 volts minus 10% to 230 volts plus 10% or 187 volts to 253 volts.
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From nyb concerning tri-voltage motors:
The key to determining what motor so select is understanding that manufacturers design their motors to operate successfully within 10% of nameplate voltage. This 10% variance applies to all nameplate voltages with the exception of the tri-voltage 208-230/460V rating. In essence, the 208 aspect of the rating is the lower limit of the 230V rating (230V minus 10% = 207V). In actuality, 208-230/460V motors are typically nothing more than
standard 230/460V motors. The bottom line is that the 208V rating does not have a 10% variance.
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From Emerson Climate Tech (re: Copeland Compressor voltages):
The majority of motors used in air conditioning and refrigeration equipment for 208 volt and 240 volt distribution systems are extended voltage 208/230 volt motors. 208/230 volt single-phase motors are generally limited to operation at 197 volts under Emerson Climate Technologies' maximum design load conditions for compressors, while 208/230 volt three-phase motors are generally limited to 187 volts under similar maximum load conditions. At times, engineers who are primarily familiar with NEMA rated single voltage motors jump to the conclusion that a 200 volt nameplate is a better motor for low voltage conditions. Such a conclusion is not necessarily true. Since Emerson maximum design load standards for compressors are quite conservative, compressors operating at normal load conditions found in systems are capable of operation at voltages far below the normal tolerance of minus 10% of the nameplate. Field experience further supports the conclusion that the extended voltage motor, because of its stronger winding construction, is capable of operating far below normal voltage conditions for extended periods without adverse effects.
...
The operating voltage range listed is for Emerson's maximum load design conditions for compressors. These conditions are normally more severe than those experienced by compressors operating in systems at system maximum load conditions. More specifically, compressors which meet these standards will normally operate satisfactorily at the system conditions and voltages required by ARI Standard 110.
...
{operating voltage range at max load design conditions}
208/230-1: 188-253V semi-hermetic and scroll
208/230-1: 197-253V hermetic (welded)
208/230-3: 187-253V
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So it would appear that the lower end of the voltage range is more of a problem than the higher end of the voltage range. Don't forget about control voltage adjustments that may be noted in the manual (I can't remember where I found that).
 
I called Taylor this morning and they said there is a 5% tolerance on the 230v. That brings me to 241.5v which is still short of my range of 240-245 at the outlet.

I'm in search of transformer now so if someone would like to help me with that. I don't want to start another thread. I've been calling my electrian for 3 days now and he's not answering. I have to call someone else but meantime I'd like to educate myself before I make a big purchase.

I found a 45kVa isolation transformer 240-208y/120volts, 3 phase online since all my suppliers in the area have to order it anyway. Is there anything I should be considering such as 3 wire or 4 wire transformer?
 
yar786 said:
I called Taylor this morning and they said there is a 5% tolerance on the 230v. That brings me to 241.5v which is still short of my range of 240-245 at the outlet.

I'm in search of transformer now so if someone would like to help me with that. I don't want to start another thread. I've been calling my electrian for 3 days now and he's not answering. I have to call someone else but meantime I'd like to educate myself before I make a big purchase.

I found a 45kVa isolation transformer 240-208y/120volts, 3 phase online since all my suppliers in the area have to order it anyway. Is there anything I should be considering such as 3 wire or 4 wire transformer?
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If no longer under warranty and were mine - I'd probably connect them directly to what you have for supply. 10% over voltage is a better thing then 10% under voltage with motor operated equipment. I can't believe they really want 5%, other for CYA on their advice.

If you choose to adjust voltage - buck boost will likely cost the least - you only need kVA capacity for the difference in current level and not to cover the entire capacity of the load. One larger buck boost for all the units instead one for each unit may also be less costly.

Whether your equipment needs a neutral conductor in the supply does make some difference in what will work best, but sounds like you just need three phase conductors plug equipment ground for your machines.

Starting to cross over into DIY advice if we go much further down this road.
 
yar786 said:
I called Taylor this morning and they said there is a 5% tolerance on the 230v. That brings me to 241.5v which is still short of my range of 240-245 at the outlet.
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kwired said:
If no longer under warranty and were mine - I'd probably connect them directly to what you have for supply. 10% over voltage is a better thing then 10% under voltage with motor operated equipment. I can't believe they really want 5%, other for CYA on their advice.
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I'm with kwired, I think they are full of "something".

The idea that your voltage will read 240-245 without a load sounds about right as it's what I would expect to measure around here with that system.

Put a load on it and calculate voltage drop at the machine and it should be within even that 5% they wish to allow.

The real question to ask is if they know of anyone that's had to install buck/boost transformers to reduce voltage from 240V to 230V. See if they have other customers with a delta system and see if the have had problems.
 
growler said:
I'm with kwired, I think they are full of "something".

The idea that your voltage will read 240-245 without a load sounds about right as it's what I would expect to measure around here with that system.

Put a load on it and calculate voltage drop at the machine and it should be within even that 5% they wish to allow.

The real question to ask is if they know of anyone that's had to install buck/boost transformers to reduce voltage from 240V to 230V. See if they have other customers with a delta system and see if the have had problems.
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I expect to see up to 250 volts with no load around here. Individual branch circuit and not very long run may not drop it much either.
 
growler said:
...Normally a machine that has 208-230V label will work just fine one 240 volts. The electrician is not confused, this is the way things normally work...
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This.

To the OP: "230 V" has become the worldwide nominal voltage. America (and Colombia, where I've worked) use an actual of 240 V. Some (like Papua New Guinea, where I've worked) use an actual of 230 V, and still some others use their old traditional 220 V.

I've never heard of issues, and have installed (or own) thousands of "230 V" pieces of equipment.

It's the exact same thing with the 115 V equipment and 120 V receptacles. Would this have given you a second thought? Check out how many pieces of equipment you have that are actually marked "115 V."
 
yar786 said:
I called Taylor this morning and they said there is a 5% tolerance on the 230v. That brings me to 241.5v which is still short of my range of 240-245 at the outlet.
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If that is real, and I seriously doubt it to be, your only practical solution is a ferroresonant transformer. Voltage will vary minute to minute, day to day, week to week, month to month, and year to year from your utility, many times outside a +/- 5% tolerance.

The output will not be a very clean sinusoidal voltage.

I suggest you try to find another source at Taylor who truly understands their machines' needs. If the information you have been given is correct, the comment by another "So you're telling me that your equipment isn't suitable for use on 90% of the 240V systems in the U.S.?" is, in my opinion, true. I'd even go over 90%.
 
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