Car collectors barn on private property Art 511?

[gene6]

A car collector has a large old barn full of cars, he's got two two lifts, looks like a regular mechanic shop on the inside.
He's had the AHJ out there and there are some violations to fix, actually lots of violations exposed NM, flying splices.

The AJH is saying Article 511 applies to this barn because the car collector has turned it into a auto repair and storage garage. When I look at article 511 the title says "commercial".
This guy is retired but probably hosts a car club or something and works in there every day, probably does some business. But there is no sign, no cash register etc its not commercial its rural area probably rural farm zoning.
What do you all think? Can a auto repair barn on residential property fall under Art 511?

 

[Eddie702]

I would think no.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

A car collector has a large old barn full of cars, he's got two two lifts, looks like a regular mechanic shop on the inside.
He's had the AHJ out there and there are some violations to fix, actually lots of violations exposed NM, flying splices.

The AJH is saying Article 511 applies to this barn because the car collector has turned it into a auto repair and storage garage. When I look at article 511 the title says "commercial".
This guy is retired but probably hosts a car club or something and works in there every day, probably does some business. But there is no sign, no cash register etc its not commercial its rural area probably rural farm zoning.
What do you all think? Can a auto repair barn on residential property fall under Art 511?

Well, it is possible. I don't see where money has to enter into it.

511.1 Scope. These occupancies shall include locations used
for service and repair operations in connection with selfpropelled
vehicles (including, but not limited to, passenger
automobiles, buses, trucks, and tractors) in which volatile flammable
liquids or flammable gases are used for fuel or power.

511.2 Definitions.
Major Repair Garage. A building or portions of a building
where major repairs, such as engine overhauls, painting, body
and fender work, and repairs that require draining of the
motor vehicle fuel tank are performed on motor vehicles,
including associated floor space used for offices, parking, or
showrooms. [30A:3.3.12.1]

Minor Repair Garage. A building or portions of a building
used for lubrication, inspection, and minor automotive maintenance
work, such as engine tune-ups, replacement of parts,
fluid changes (e.g., oil, antifreeze, transmission fluid, brake
fluid, air-conditioning refrigerants), brake system repairs, tire
rotation, and similar routine maintenance work, including
associated floor space used for offices, parking, or showrooms.
[30A:3.3.12.2]

 

[david]

A car collector has a large old barn full of cars, he's got two two lifts, looks like a regular mechanic shop on the inside.
He's had the AHJ out there and there are some violations to fix, actually lots of violations exposed NM, flying splices.

The AJH is saying Article 511 applies to this barn because the car collector has turned it into a auto repair and storage garage. When I look at article 511 the title says "commercial".
This guy is retired but probably hosts a car club or something and works in there every day, probably does some business. But there is no sign, no cash register etc its not commercial its rural area probably rural farm zoning.
What do you all think? Can a auto repair barn on residential property fall under Art 511?

Jay Leno better watch out, A building department classifying a garage as commercial is outside the scope of the NEC you are most likely looking at the International Building Code or the Internation Existing Building Code

 

[CoolWill]

I'm curious how the AHJ ended up in this garage on private property in the first place.

 

[qcroanoke]

I'm curious how the AHJ ended up in this garage on private property in the first place.

Owner called him and let him in according to OP.

 

[jaggedben]

I'm more or less with the AHJ here. Arguing against it relies on a legalistic interpretation of 'commercial' which is not actually defined in the NEC. Whereas if the activities that take place in the building strongly resemble those of a regular commercial autoshop, the safety considerations are the same and it makes sense to apply the article. Ultimately the decision of whether the site is 'commercial' is outside of the scope of the NEC and does not have to depend on ownership or business status. It could depend on however some state or local ordinance empowers the AHJ to decide it.

 

[Strathead]

I'm also with the AHJ. At least with my interpretation of the OP. If the garage is used to store and work on his own cars as a hobby, then it would be a garage. If other people come in and work on their vehicles there, or he works on there vehicles there, then it is a commercial garage for code purposes. Money or no money. Bottom line here though is, the government is going to win and it isn't going to be about the NEC, it is going to be about zoning, taxes, etc.

 

[petersonra]

Commercial seems to be part of a title and if I recall correctly, titles are not enforceable.

The problem with this definition is if I have a paint scratch on my car and fix that scratch in my own garage, the ahj would have the authority to declare it a major repair garage.

 

[infinity]

Commercial seems to be part of a title and if I recall correctly, titles are not enforceable.

The problem with this definition is if I have a paint scratch on my car and fix that scratch in my own garage, the ahj would have the authority to declare it a major repair garage.

I agree. The requirements are for commercial garages which as Bob noted is in the Article title. A non-commercial garage on private property can everything in Dennis' list and still not fall under the commercial garage requirements.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree. The requirements are for commercial garages which as Bob noted is in the Article title. A non-commercial garage on private property can everything in Dennis' list and still not fall under the commercial garage requirements.

When you have many vehicles that are being worked on often and there are gases involved I think it would be negligent to not treat it as a commercial garage esp. with car lifts. Op also stated the owner probably does some business and that it looks like a regular mechanic shop. I am with the authority having jurisdiction but I can see the need for clarification

 

[jim dungar]

What does the zoning department call this property? Usually you can't mix residential and commercial activities without permission.
How about the other building department requirements for commercial properties, like fire protection and emergency exits.

I am not a believer in the NEC having the power to define an area be it commercial, hazardous, residential, or health care.

 

[gene6]

Owner called him and let him in according to OP.

The homowner had a permit for a septic system replacement and the electrical panel is in the garage/barn.
I think he had some other expired permits and got flagged when the new septic went in plus the panel has no cover. There are lots of issues and he's fine with fixing them but the commercial thing got me.

What does the zoning department call this property?

Its your typical rural farm zoning whatever that is, I don't want to make any calls and trigger any more red flags, which probably is my answer right there.
Ill have to give 511 a closer read and see if I can just relocate the majority of the electrical out of the 'zones'.
The AJH is fine with the garage just says it has to be to article 511.
Thank you all for the feedback.

 

[infinity]

The AJH is fine with the garage just says it has to be to article 511.
Thank you all for the feedback

Based on what? 511 is very clearly defined as to applying to commercial garages. The word commercial is right there in the title of the Article.

 

[jaggedben]

If the AHJ says it's commercial what's the basis for telling him it isn't?

 

[infinity]

If the guy is making money from doing work in the garage then it meets the definition of the word commercial. If not it's just a garage.

 

[petersonra]

Based on what? 511 is very clearly defined as to applying to commercial garages. The word commercial is right there in the title of the Article.

Are titles enforceable? I don't think so.

It's unlikely anyone intended it to apply to someone's personal garage but by the letter of what the article says it covers it does.

 

[david]

The homowner had a permit for a septic system replacement and the electrical panel is in the garage/barn.
I think he had some other expired permits and got flagged when the new septic went in plus the panel has no cover. There are lots of issues and he's fine with fixing them but the commercial thing got me.


Its your typical rural farm zoning whatever that is, I don't want to make any calls and trigger any more red flags, which probably is my answer right there.
Ill have to give 511 a closer read and see if I can just relocate the majority of the electrical out of the 'zones'.
The AJH is fine with the garage just says it has to be to article 511.
Thank you all for the feedback.

Has the owner considered cross ventilation pulling the air no more than 12 in off the floor. You could in effect declasify the area"s with the correct cubic in of ventilation


If the areas remain classified you would also have to consider the areas adjacent to a classified area

 

[infinity]

Are titles enforceable? I don't think so.

It's unlikely anyone intended it to apply to someone's personal garage but by the letter of what the article says it covers it does.

The title of the article is part of the code so yes of course it's relevant to the discussion. If the garage is used for commercial purposes 511 applies, if not then it's a garage not a commercial garage.

 

[david]

The title of the article is part of the code so yes of course it's relevant to the discussion. If the garage is used for commercial purposes 511 applies, if not then it's a garage not a commercial garage.

One of the problems with that is the definition of comercial. For instance in this state residential is defined. And comercial is defined as anything that's not residential.

So it's going to depend on his states definition of comercial