Card Access

[e57]

I don't know exacly what a C-28 license is. ( do not bother explaing it for my benefit, it does not matter). I do know it costs money and your time, which is money. We as an industry need to stop accepting the fact that just becuase there is an additional license needed makes it ok. It is not ok it adds to bottom line of the end user, and some day you might be that end user, or the consumer of your client, and now you are paying for that additional license. I did not say that you should be installing lock sets or making keys. That's not what was being suggested, and I agree electricans are not locksmiths. We should be free to install any device that is wired. Watering down the master
electricans scope of work, is like cutting off a toe or finger.

A C-28 is just that a different licence - While I know what you're getting at 'big government - bureaucracy - fees, and taxes - bottom line is I don't like GC's, plumbers or sheet-rockers doing electrical for important reasons... There are a number of important reasons certain access controls should be properly designed and under certain conditions.... e.g. Since Columbine there are a number of codes and design criteria to how access systems work and how and when and to whom they limit access to schools and other buildings.... As well as fail safe egress in a number of situations. Sure many of these items are electrical in nature - but then again so is an elevator - which is a different trade for a huge number of reasons. But if there is little respect of these difference in trades on our side - then how could be upset when plumbers start doing electrical services - hey they are pipes - with wire in them - whats the difference???? :roll: And I know a lot of plumbers, electricians and sheet-rockers who should not be given anytime access to a lot of different places - like banks or sorority houses.... If you're installing a lock - it is very easy to set up a way into it later...

And while I know way to much about structual engineering - I'm not going to call myself one... As I'm positive that I don't know nearly enough...

That said - I remember getting myself in over my head with an egress door on a medical building. Mag lock -proximity sensor in the inside handle - battery back up... (all "electrical") The settings for the inside handle were such a PITA to get right... One day it locked everyone in.... The next day the door would not lock... Then one day the security guy pointed out to me that you could take a wire and stick it through the door and just touch the handle to unlock the door... (Just a little test he would do to know if the door was working right - and a break-in trick for ones that aren't...) Finally had to call someone who knew what they were doing.... Five minutes done... (Which required changing the handle out to the right one...)

Now say other "electrical stuff" smoke and fire door holders - sure.... You know its working - and have a simple straight forward fire alarm test - it was open - now it's closed... Reset and it stays open - cool... It fails safe - no one is responsible for break-ins or personal attacks - or loss of property....

 

[goldstar]

Why would the liability be any different when my work also provides ALL surrounding functions of this door system? I install the fire system. I install the normal and emergency power to systems. I am an "unlimited state licensed electrical contractor". All aspects of the door control system is electric in nature.

I don't think Satcom's warning was meant to scare you off doing the job or to insinuate that you don't have the ability to install these systems but rather to warn you that in general, insurance premiums are higher if you regularly install alarm systems (in your case you may have to interface with a fire alarm system). The primary reason is that if a system fails, a door fails to open during a fire alarm, someone gets injured, etc. the lawyers use the "shot gun" approach to suing all involved in the installation of the system irrespective of whether you did a good job or not. There are usually more components to alarm systems that can malfunction by comparison to a receptacle at the end of a circuit breaker. For whatever their reasons are insurance companies believe that installations of alarm systems (or any components relating to alarm systems) present a greater risk (on their part) than installations of 200 amp services. Go figure

I would check with your insurance company and make sure you are properly covered to do this work. If so, good luck with the project.

 

[charlietuna]

We worked in many buildings with expensive double doors in their reception areas. As security became more of an issue on people's minds after 9-11, we were constantly asked to install security on these doors. The drilling from "side to side"(36 incvhes) across a $300 solid core door was risky! One of the original building's carpenters had a jig which held a small drill perfectly plumb over the door and could be lowered slowly along a unistrut channel. As long as the channel and the door were perfectly aligned, and you took your time since the bit was 36 inches long, we never had a problem. We were making good money installing these systems, since locksmiths refused to risk the drill proceedure. One time after we gave the management office a price on the job, they decided to let their staff install the system. We noticed they were asking us questions on how to drill the doors! And the first door they thought they could drill by sighting the drill--one guy drilling and the other telling him "right of left" -- they messed up two doors! Then they asked to borrow our jig! I didn't like it, but we did a lot of work for them. Well they didn't listen when we told them to go slow! After three doors--we were right back in installing the entire system. A typical system would be an outside card reader --a inside motion detector to unlock the door as people were exiting -- a fire relay to unlock the door on fire -- electric hinges -- fail safe electric lock with battery back up power supply and sometimes a remote release button and TV monitor at a reception desk. Actually, very little "locksmith work" and maybe two days-two men in the electrical industry.
This reminds me of the days when "computer cabling" started. Most "electrical contractors" stayed away from this! Some of the cable was 80 cents a foot and the "computer liability" was scary!! We got involved with "WANG" computers installing the cable for their techs. And they asked us to do the termiations too. We were lucky to have two guys with experience in telephone systems and i had them doing the terminations. And we quickly were installing all types of systems and making very good money doing it. "Computer cabling" became 60 percent of our work for about three years, until the market loaded up with "data contractors". As the system's changed - so did the cable requirements !! We always stayed ahead of the technologies -- We did one job when "CAT-5" started that was $80,000. !
A lot of our work involves "SOME" work of other
trades! We learnt that if we refused to get involved in this electrical work -- someone else did(not electrical contractors)--and usually made good money doing it !! It's like asking someone else to remove and re-install ceiling tiles on a cable install. Electricians can do most anything and most of the time better than that trade, once they get the hang of it. Consider your customer in these cases -- trying to co-ordinate a group of trades?? The expense can get out of hand very fast. Our customers want it done with a minimal disruption to their operation and they don't even want to know that we were there!!

 

[Rewire99]

I don't think Satcom's warning was meant to scare you off doing the job or to insinuate that you don't have the ability to install these systems but rather to warn you that in general, insurance premiums are higher if you regularly install alarm systems (in your case you may have to interface with a fire alarm system). The primary reason is that if a system fails, a door fails to open during a fire alarm, someone gets injured, etc. the lawyers use the "shot gun" approach to suing all involved in the installation of the system irrespective of whether you did a good job or not. There are usually more components to alarm systems that can malfunction by comparison to a receptacle at the end of a circuit breaker. For whatever their reasons are insurance companies believe that installations of alarm systems (or any components relating to alarm systems) present a greater risk (on their part) than installations of 200 amp services. Go figure

I would check with your insurance company and make sure you are properly covered to do this work. If so, good luck with the project.

That is correct Electrical Contracting insurance does not cover security or fire work but as you said just make sure you have the proper coverages if your doing that type of work.

 

[e57]

That is correct Electrical Contracting insurance does not cover security or fire work but as you said just make sure you have the proper coverages if your doing that type of work.

And if you consider insurance as a cost of doing buisiness - if you state requires licensing or registration for that trade - that too is also a cost of doing such work. Elevators controls are 100% electrical if you look at it from that prespective.

 

[nhfire77]

An elevator is not the same thing as access control. Plumbers installing electrical devices is not what is at question here. It's the watering down and making everything a speciality. Elevators are not a specialty, it's an entirely seperate trade. Electricans have been installing access contol and alarms since the begining. Electrians have not been installing the mechanical systems of an elevator, ever. That's the difference. The more fragmented the "electrical" field becomes, the most people get their hands into the pot. Is that something you see a benefit to? I am not advocating plumbers and GC's doing electrical work. Nor do I want to do anything related to toilets or framing.

I want to see progressive changes and bigger better opportunities for this industry. Not the subdivision of it.

 

[nhfire77]

And if you consider insurance as a cost of doing buisiness - if you state requires licensing or registration for that trade - that too is also a cost of doing such work. Elevators controls are 100% electrical if you look at it from that prespective.

I know very little about the evevator industry. But, I believe the way they are trained both electrical and mechanical (correct me if I am wrong). I don't see it as an electrical trade but a stand alone industry. It just happens so that they runs their own circuitry.

They don't get to add a circuit somewhere else on a job if the EC is too busy to. That is why I see a delineation between elevator and electrical.

 

[e57]

I know very little about the evevator industry. But, I believe the way they are trained both electrical and mechanical (correct me if I am wrong). I don't see it as an electrical trade but a stand alone industry. It just happens so that they runs their own circuitry.

They don't get to add a circuit somewhere else on a job if the EC is too busy to. That is why I see a delineation between elevator and electrical.

I'm not saying this to get your goat..... As I'm about to do something un-cool - it'll just save typing.... What you said - different, but from my point of view.....

'I know very little about the Security industry. But, I believe the way they are trained both electrical (limited voltage and energy) and mechanical ~. I don't see it as an electrical trade but a stand alone industry. It just happens so that they runs their own circuitry. And do so for reasons....

They don't get to add a circuit somewhere else on a job if the EC is too busy to. That is why I see a delineation between Security and electrical.'


Sure the carpenters can install locks... And us Electricians can run wire of all kinds. But neither should be making keys to said lock or programing access codes, or designing secure paths of egress through buildings of many types... (Schools - hospitals and medical facilities - airports - or courtrooms or other government buildings) Because it is about "Security" - not wire...

 

[satcom]

I don't think Satcom's warning was meant to scare you off doing the job or to insinuate that you don't have the ability to install these systems but rather to warn you that in general, insurance premiums are higher if you regularly install alarm systems (in your case you may have to interface with a fire alarm system). The primary reason is that if a system fails, a door fails to open during a fire alarm, someone gets injured, etc. the lawyers use the "shot gun" approach to suing all involved in the installation of the system irrespective of whether you did a good job or not. There are usually more components to alarm systems that can malfunction by comparison to a receptacle at the end of a circuit breaker. For whatever their reasons are insurance companies believe that installations of alarm systems (or any components relating to alarm systems) present a greater risk (on their part) than installations of 200 amp services. Go figure

I would check with your insurance company and make sure you are properly covered to do this work. If so, good luck with the project.

Yes, iust noting the risk and higher costs.

 

[macmikeman]

All things being equal, I found pursuit of access controls and cctv / security wiring jobs to be rewarding in both money and pleasure of learning new electrical techniques. But cash flow is king and those types of projects are harder to keep the cash flowing in regular than the quick and dirty lights and receptacle outlets type of wiring projects, so now I tend to avoid anything complex and instead want in and out quick get paid now jobs.

 

[goldstar]

But cash flow is king and those types of projects are harder to keep the cash flowing in regular than the quick and dirty lights and receptacle outlets type of wiring projects, so now I tend to avoid anything complex and instead want in and out quick get paid now jobs.

That's a very good point. Who needs slow cash flow in this economy. Aside from your insurance covering you properly you have to be very well capitalzed because you're probably not going to get paid in 30 days.

 

[satcom]

That's a very good point. Who needs slow cash flow in this economy. Aside from your insurance covering you properly you have to be very well capitalzed because you're probably not going to get paid in 30 days.

Fire pays more and faster plus it has the benifit of repeat business, first you install the system, and get paid, then you monitor the system and receive on going revenue from then and then you maintain the system and get on going revenue from that, then finally you get service calls from the accounts and revenur from that.

 

[charlietuna]

My state license is "Unlimited" and fire alarm, as well as electrical door access systems and security systems require permits. All these permits are electrical in nature, but in different catigories. My license covers all these items, and i have to carry $5 Million in liability insurance that i have never had a claim in 30 years of coverage. Some of you people are suggesting electricians should not make keys--nobody said EC should make keys! The issue here is protecting your work. This industry has many,many small facits that require electrical energy to function. Originally, Electrical Contractors installed elevator equipment and controls--and for many years! But they started thinking like some of the above posters, and got so busy they ignored the elevator installs and another trade was created. Elevator installations are mainly electrical and lots of good work --with much higher profits than the average work we do!! Locksmiths installing card access systems without permits are illegal and require permits by licensed contractors. Consider a locksmith installing a fire relay in a high rise office stairwell riser??? If we don't claim this work --soon all Electrcal Contractors will be installing is Receptacles and Switches !!!

 

[satcom]

My state license is "Unlimited" and fire alarm, as well as electrical door access systems and security systems require permits. All these permits are electrical in nature, but in different catigories. My license covers all these items, and i have to carry $5 Million in liability insurance that i have never had a claim in 30 years of coverage. Some of you people are suggesting electricians should not make keys--nobody said EC should make keys! The issue here is protecting your work. This industry has many,many small facits that require electrical energy to function. Originally, Electrical Contractors installed elevator equipment and controls--and for many years! But they started thinking like some of the above posters, and got so busy they ignored the elevator installs and another trade was created. Elevator installations are mainly electrical and lots of good work --with much higher profits than the average work we do!! Locksmiths installing card access systems without permits are illegal and require permits by licensed contractors. Consider a locksmith installing a fire relay in a high rise office stairwell riser??? If we don't claim this work --soon all Electrcal Contractors will be installing is Receptacles and Switches !!!

The issue is not doing the work, but being insured to do it, you said you had $5 million in liability, but unless that 5 million was alarm insurance with E&O and liability clauses, it had no coverage for working on fire systems.

 

[charlietuna]

My insurance covered my work as an unlimited electrical contractor--no where in my policy were there any specifications to all the facits of our trade. How could i bid many jobs which AUTOMATICALLY included fire alarm work on the "E" drawings ? Our electrical permits even included fire alarm outlets on the Electrical Permit. If i wanted a permit for a security system, i would get an electrical permit and fill out the appropiate boxes for security outlets.

 

[fishin' electrician]

My agent told me that as long as my alarm work was no more than 10% of my overall work I didn't need any more insurance than I already have.

 

[satcom]

My insurance covered my work as an unlimited electrical contractor--no where in my policy were there any specifications to all the facits of our trade. How could i bid many jobs which AUTOMATICALLY included fire alarm work on the "E" drawings ? Our electrical permits even included fire alarm outlets on the Electrical Permit. If i wanted a permit for a security system, i would get an electrical permit and fill out the appropiate boxes for security outlets.

There are plenty of electrical contractors working outside their coverages, and that is fine until something goes wrong, and your business and personal assets are on the line.

You would know if you were covered for fire work, you have to submitt a detailed renewal app and have your contracts reviewed every year.

 

[charlietuna]

I have been in business for over thirty years and never had a contract review-most of our work is outside of contract work -- my insurance company is only interested gross income and they are one of the largest in the country. And we work for many of the largest management companies and largest general contractors in the world . ????

 

[electricguy]

My insurance policy specifically excludes me from installing security devices and panels,and I assume any access controls that would be connected somehow to the security system

 

[MAK]

Consider a locksmith installing a fire relay in a high rise office stairwell riser??? If we don't claim this work --soon all Electrcal Contractors will be installing is Receptacles and Switches !!!

I don't think that is an imminent threat. I work for a security company and all we do is card access, cctv, etc...
I have found that some electricians are quite talented and can learn all of the little components of installing access control systems. I have also seen electricians that had a lot of trouble learning or grasping common concepts related to security installations. I have never encountered a locksmith that has the slightest clue on access control (not saying they don't exist).

If an electrician feels that it is within his or her ability to do the work then by all means go for it. As far as licensing goes I do not think it is bad to have an additional license required to do the work. It may weed out companies that are truly interested in doing the work and those who just want to make a buck when things get slow. In my experience some customers can take security seriously and thus need to have a company that will be there to support their installation. In Mass I believe if you have an A, B, or C, then all you need is an S-License to run a legit security company (which seems to be a piece of paper and a check sent to the state). I do not know how involved security licensing is in other states but here just about any donkey can start their own security company.

If you are doing a one or two door system no big deal. If you are doing a 300 door system and or live cutover, you better know what you are doing.