Cattle Show Barn

Little Bill · Mar 3, 2023

I have a customer that has built a show barn for cattle. No cattle will be housed there, they will just be there on show days. No hay or feed will be stored there.
How much, if any, of the Ag rules in 547 would need to be applied?
The floor is just sand with the exception of one corner that has a concrete pad. The pad will be a wash area and some fans for blow drying the cattle. I'm not sure if that area needs an equipotential plane or not. If it does, then there is a problem as the concrete has already been poured and no exposed rebar or mesh to attach to.

ptonsparky · Mar 3, 2023

Little Bill said:
I have a customer that has built a show barn for cattle. No cattle will be housed there, they will just be there on show days. No hay or feed will be stored there.
How much, if any, of the Ag rules in 547 would need to be applied?
The floor is just sand with the exception of one corner that has a concrete pad. The pad will be a wash area and some fans for blow drying the cattle. I'm not sure if that area needs an equipotential plane or not. If it does, then there is a problem as the concrete has already been poured and no exposed rebar or mesh to attach to.

The building does not fit 547. You will know soon enough if you have need of a gradient. GFCI the outlets. Use minimal 120 volt loads.

Little Bill · Mar 3, 2023

ptonsparky said:
The building does not fit 547. You will know soon enough if you have need of a gradient. GFCI the outlets. Use minimal 120 volt loads.

I was told there would be fans everywhere there are cattle that pull 17A. Don't know how to minimize that.

synchro · Mar 4, 2023

ptonsparky said:
The building does not fit 547. You will know soon enough if you have need of a gradient. GFCI the outlets. Use minimal 120 volt loads.

Little Bill said:
I was told there would be fans everywhere there are cattle that pull 17A. Don't know how to minimize that.

Balancing the L-N loads between phases to the extent possible would minimize the voltage drop on the neutral conductor.

Is a Ronk blocker or isolation transformer an option? Could the service or feeder be loaded to produce a test current on the neutral to see how much its voltage gets elevated relative to metal probes in the ground near sensitive areas?

ptonsparky · Mar 4, 2023

Little Bill said:
I was told there would be fans everywhere there are cattle that pull 17A. Don't know how to minimize that.

You won't know the condition of those fans either.

The first few cattle that refuse the wash station or jump off will be the test, but I believe you know that already.

Hv&Lv · Mar 4, 2023

Not a cattle expert.

Would the cows even feel a gradient unless the fan is actually touching them?

You think step potential would be that big an issue?

LarryFine · Mar 4, 2023

Hv&Lv said:
Not a cattle expert.

Would the cows even feel a gradient unless the fan is actually touching them?

You think step potential would be that big an issue?

Yes, it's even known to affect milk production.

Hv&Lv · Mar 4, 2023

LarryFine said:
Yes, it's even known to affect milk production.

I know that, but the milking devices are touching them in a sensitive area.

Little Bill · Mar 4, 2023

I'm probably going to get a walk-through/safety permit and let the inspector tell me what he wants to see.

The POCO is going to set a pad mount transformer about 30-40' from the barn. Underground to the barn, then a 400A/320A meter base. There will be two 200A panels back to back of the meter.

ptonsparky · Mar 4, 2023

Hv&Lv said:
....

You think step potential would be that big an issue?

Only at the wash area, and that's a maybe.

GoldDigger · Mar 4, 2023

Whether they are directly touching the fan or its enclosure, if the fan is producing ground current (current in the GES system which leads to either earth currents, or volage drops across an EGC) then the resuting potential differrence between items in the livestock environment can cause either touch or step potential.
For a continuous concrete floor, the step potential is likely to be small, even if the rebar has not been bonded into an equipotential grid. But there can be significant potential differences at unbonded slab boundaries (as at expansion joints.)
Because of the distance between their fore and hind legs, cattle are exposed to a greater step potential than humans from a continuous gradient, in addition to being more sensitive to step potential in the first place.
Another common potential problem exists at the boundary between a concrete slab and bare earth (or even asphalt concrete.)

steve66 · Mar 7, 2023

ptonsparky said:
The building does not fit 547.

???

It's an ag building for cattle. How does 547 not apply?

I'd say a barn is a barn, and I would think there is a good chance the inspector would agree (if there an inspector).

They may say it's not for housing animals now, but what if they sell the property, or what if the "Show" business doesn't take off, and then it's just a barn?

Little Bill · Mar 7, 2023

steve66 said:
???

It's an ag building for cattle. How does 547 not apply?

I'd say a barn is a barn, and I would think there is a good chance the inspector would agree (if there an inspector).

They may say it's not for housing animals now, but what if they sell the property, or what if the "Show" business doesn't take off, and then it's just a barn?

That "what if" question could go on and on!

steve66 · Mar 7, 2023

Little Bill said:
That "what if" question could go on and on!

Yea, I'm not usually a big fan of that type of argument, but here I think it is appropriate.

The code is pretty specific about what an agricultural building is, and there really isn't any "I'm just going to use it to show animals." exception.

gadfly56 · Mar 7, 2023

steve66 said:
Yea, I'm not usually a big fan of that type of argument, but here I think it is appropriate.

The code is pretty specific about what an agricultural building is, and there really isn't any "I'm just going to use it to show animals." exception.

Plus, if it's not an agricultural building, what is it?

ptonsparky · Mar 7, 2023

Are you going to call your garage an Ag Building because you happen to bring your Show Goat in there to wash & groom it a couple times a year?

Show barns are not confinement buildings where the animals are there for months or longer. Housekeeping will determine 547.1 (A) &/or (B) and the ones I've seen are clean.

I had a customer with an indoor roping arena. I've never seen it used that way. I've seen trucks, tractors, and field equipment in it. I've also seen a few pens for first year heifers. Not one use resulted in A or B..

We did treat the wash down area as Ag, but not the whole building.

retirede · Mar 7, 2023

gadfly56 said:
Plus, if it's not an agricultural building, what is it?

A theater. Only the performers are animals instead of people.

ptonsparky · Mar 7, 2023

gadfly56 said:
Plus, if it's not an agricultural building, what is it?

A shop. A garage. A rodeo arena. Target range.

steve66 · Mar 9, 2023

ptonsparky said:
A shop. A garage. A rodeo arena. Target range.

Well, maybe if not for this:

Little Bill said:
The floor is just sand with the exception of one corner that has a concrete pad. The pad will be a wash area and some fans for blow drying the cattle.

I would think you would at least want the equipotential plane in the wash area. Maybe even more so for a show barn given the possible value of the livestock.

gadfly56 · Mar 9, 2023

ptonsparky said:
A shop. A garage. A rodeo arena. Target range.

A shop - with a sand floor? I don't think so. If you say "foundry", where are the ovens and suitable gas service, etc?
A garage - with a sand floor? What kind of garage has a sand floor?
A rodeo arena - still an ag building
A target range - where is the backstop? fume extractor?

Cattle Show Barn

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