CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

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JohnGS2000

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We're having an issue with one of our local inspectors and the requirement for type of cable in buried conduit. We're installing RG59/U (UL) CL2P Siamese with 18/2 supplied for a CCTV Security application and in two areas this cable is run through approved underground PVC conduit. The inspector is stating that this cable must be direct-burial cable vice what we are using.

The question is - If the RG-59/U CL2P is in approved underground conduit, then why must the cable be rated/approved for direct burial and where in the code is this referenced?

I've done this for years now in the Security/CCTV field and this is the first issue that we've come up against. Thanks. :confused: JohnGShaulis@MSN.com

[ June 22, 2005, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: JohnGS2000 ]
 
J

JohnGS2000

Member
Re: CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

Any idea where in the code that it lists the requirement? We've been installing this cable for years in underground conduit and have never come across this. Its' a rated UL approved cable from a major manufacturer.
 
tom baker

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Bremerton, Washington
Re: CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

While you may of been install RG coax in cables for years with it being listed for a wet location, its been a code requirement for years that cables installed in a underground conduit be listed for wet location.
See article 100 definition:
Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.

One of the challanges is there is not many manufacturers of wet location listed coax cables. Undground conduits almost always are full of water, eventually the coax will fail.

I install a lot of LMR-400 Coax, its available in a flooded version, not listed, but the manufacture identifies it as wet location so I can use it, but not inside a building.
 
ryan_618

ryan_618

Senior Member
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

I see nothing in article 820 that would require the cables to be listed at all (since they are outdoors), and I don't see anything about being listed/identified/approved for damp or wet locations. I understand that underground is a wet location, but I still don't don't see where this is required to be complied with.
 
J

JohnGS2000

Member
Re: CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

Going through the 800/820 sections of the code I still have a hard time finding any CCTV applications. I understand that coax is coax is coax and that almost all CATV requirements can apply but we're talking about specific req's for CCTV applications. The RG59/U (UL) CL2 18/2 is not addressed in the tables as well. This type of coax is one of the industry standards for CCTV applications in a multi-signal installation. Some installations are now calling for CAT-5E as a substitute but it requires more effort/materials and converters. Any further direction or references would be greatly appreciated.
 
hbiss

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Re: CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

John, Ryan knows what he is talking about, he should, he's an inspector. :)

It is general practice to use a flooded cable simply because the conduit will fill with water but this is a design issue, not a code issue. If I were you I would use a flooded cable if you want it to last more than a year or so.

You won't (I don't think) find a flooded siamese RG-6 and 18-2 so you will have to pull two separate cables, flooded RG-6 and an 18-2.

There is no such thing as a flooded 18-2 so you will have to use something like type TC that is suitable for direct burial.

-Hal
 
ryan_618

ryan_618

Senior Member
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

John, it doesn't matter if it is located in the Article 820 tables, because the cable is not required to be listed if it is outdoors. Regarding not seeing it in the tables, you won't see the term "RG-59" anywhere in the code, but that doesn't mean you can't use it. I would take another look at your cable and see what it does say. I am looking at a piece of RG-59 and a piece of RG-6 that are in my hand right now, and they say "CATV", which is in the tables of Article 820 (which is the applicible Article).

See the definition of approved also, I notice you have misused it alot in your post(s).

Hal, Bob, thanks guys, I appreciate it :)
 
J

JohnGS2000

Member
Re: CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

Well guys, let me first say that I'm am not by far doubting any of your knowledge or experience. I wish I had half the experience you folks have as electricians and inspectors. My experience has been in surveillance systems. If I have slighted anybody by assuming they were not correct, let me apologize in bucket fulls. But on my defense, I do want to say that I've had numerous electricians both Journeyman and Master Journeyman come to me about surveillance systems. Granted it all starts out in basic electricity but then it starts getting complicated. As far as my misusing terms "approved", the point I was trying to get across is that RG59U (UL) CL2 18/2 is approved for CCTV Installations due to its shielding and low loss for signal strength where RG-6 is approved for CATV Installations. I apologize for the confusion. I guess my lack of knowledge in the definition area is pretty poor. Sorry for wasting everyones time and I apologize again.
 
ryan_618

ryan_618

Senior Member
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

There is no need to apologize. Have you looked at the definitions yet?

Did you have a chance to look at your cables?

I really don't see this as being a requirement. You should ask your inspector to show you what section of the code you are not complying with.
 
M

macmikeman

Senior Member
Location
Planet macmikeman
Re: CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

To JohnGS2000- Take this inspector over to the nearest underground catv pull box and let him look at what the cable company is using - rg-6.
To Ryan618 -I have never heard about this one . This is totally new and interesting to me Ryan the part about outdoors not required to be listed. Does this just apply to this particular type of cable or is it for all cables installed outdoors? How about outdoor equipment?
 
P

pierre

Senior Member
Location
Westchester County, New York
Re: CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

2002 NEC
"II. Cables Outside and Entering Buildings
820.10 Outside Cables. Coaxial cables, prior to the point of grounding, as defined in 820.33, shall comply with 820.10(A) through (F)."

In the 2005, it is Part II, with the section numbers starting at .44, instead of .10.


"V. Cables Within Buildings
820.49 Fire Resistance of CATV Cables. Coaxial cables installed as wiring within buildings shall be listed as being resistant to the spread of fire in accordance with 820.50 and
820.51."

In the 2005, the Part is still Part V, again with the section numbers different (.113).

The language in the '05 has changed:

"820.113. Installation and Marking of Coxial Cables.
the Listed coxial cables shall be installed as wiring within buildings."


As you can see there is no mention of listing of cables for outdoor installation, whereas for inside installation within the building, there is a requirement for listed cables.
 
J

JohnGS2000

Member
Re: CCTV Cabling/Conduit Requirements

Ryan - Good Morning. I've got two samples of the siamese we use in front of me. Here's what they have imprinted: RG-59/2-18 75OHM-CM (UL)C(UL) and the other one: 993253 E100316-H 1C20 AWG RG59/U 2C18 AWG TYPE CL2(UL) SUN RES.

MAC - Good Morning to you also! Unfortunately at this location there are no CATV boxes. This is a very large storage area. The only pull boxes installed are for the CCTV systems on each of the buildings. Trust me, I would have shown him if CATV were there.

Thanks guys, much appreciated.
 
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