CEE and H2O pipe

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ivsenroute

ivsenroute

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Florida
More grounding and bonding CEE and H2O

If you have a CEE to rebar in the footing which is properly connected to the service equipment and there is a copper water pipe that feeds the structure I have a question.....................

Do you still have to bond to the water pipe within 5' of where it enters the foundation if it qualifies as a grounding electrode?

Notice my choice of words....
 
I say IF the water pipe qualifies as an electrode it must be bonded within 5 feet even with a CCE.
 
You either ground the water pipe per 250.52(A)(1) or bond it per 240.104. The difference is the location of the connection.
 
Bonding of the water pipe is only done if the piping is not an electrode. Thus plastic to the building then copper inside requires bonding anywhere along the pipe. As stated if 10' metal coming in from underground then it is an electrode and it must be done within 5' of where it enters the building.
 
jwjrw said:
IF it qualifies as an electrode you are not bonding it. So 250.52 (a)(1) is the correct article to follow.
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Yes I absolutely agree.

I am posting this because we get a lot of slack when we enforce this requirement. When the H20 clearly qualifies as a grounding electrode, it must be bonded within 5' of the entrance even if you already have a CEE.
 
raider1 said:
If there is 10' of metal pipe in contact with the earth then 250.50 and 250.52(A)(1) applies.

Chris
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The simple and correct answer.

Dennis Alwon said:
Bonding of the water pipe is only done if the piping is not an electrode. Thus plastic to the building then copper inside requires bonding anywhere along the pipe. As stated if 10' metal coming in from underground then it is an electrode and it must be done within 5' of where it enters the building.
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Dennis

I would like to disagree with you on your first sentence. Imagine that.

Per 250.64(F)(1) I could go to the CEE first then bond the waterline within 5' of entry.
 
You guys by now I'm sure know what I'm going to say. If the gec water pipe connection is made on the INTERIOR , THEN it must be within 5' foot of the entrance into the building. A water pipe with at least 10 foot of direct buried contact with the soil is the real target as far as grounding is concerned .
 
macmikeman said:
You guys by now I'm sure know what I'm going to say. If the gec water pipe connection is made on the INTERIOR , THEN it must be within 5' foot of the entrance into the building. A water pipe with at least 10 foot of direct buried contact with the soil is the real target as far as grounding is concerned .
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A moot point for ivsenroute, that connection is never outside in this area.
 
If there is at least 10 feet of metal pipe in contact with earth then it MUST be used as an electrode. By permission the grounding electrode conductor or electrode bonding jumper is allowed to hit the interior metal water piping system within the first five feet.
The 2011 code went to extra lengths to explain that this first five feet is NOT electrode but just a connection point which we are allowed to hit the metal water pipe as outlined in the new 250.68(C).

Should there be any removable device such as water filters and the such between the point of attachment of the grounding electrode conductor or electrode bonding jumper and the first five feet of metal where it enters the building then a bonding jumper as outlined in 250.104(A) will also be required for the interior metal water pipe.
 
I am glad to see that just about everyone seems to agree that regardless of the use of a CEE or 2 ground rods, the H2O pipe, if it qualifies as an electrode, must be connected within 5' of entering the building.

The opinion that I get from EC's when this becomes an issue due to finished basements and access is that they think...............If I have a CEE or 2 rods then the H2O pipe is not necessary therefore I am only bonding it. I don't agree with this logic and this is the part that causes me headaches.

This is usually never a problem in commercial structures with building steel as you can jump from building steel directly to the water pipe (within 5') as long as the building steel is bonded, which it is required to be anyway.
 
ivsenroute said:
I
The opinion that I get from EC's when this becomes an issue due to finished basements and access is that they think...............If I have a CEE or 2 rods then the H2O pipe is not necessary therefore I am only bonding it. I don't agree with this logic and this is the part that causes me headaches.
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If you have a CEE and two rods you would still need to use the water pipe electrode since it's present. Those EC's have no argument.
 
ivsenroute said:
i am glad to see that just about everyone seems to agree that regardless of the use of a cee or 2 ground rods, the h2o pipe, if it qualifies as an electrode, must be connected within 5' of entering the building.

The opinion that i get from ec's when this becomes an issue due to finished basements and access is that they think...............if i have a cee or 2 rods then the h2o pipe is not necessary therefore i am only bonding it. I don't agree with this logic and this is the part that causes me headaches.

This is usually never a problem in commercial structures with building steel as you can jump from building steel directly to the water pipe (within 5') as long as the building steel is bonded, which it is required to be anyway.
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250.68(a).
 
ivsenroute said:
I am glad to see that just about everyone seems to agree that regardless of the use of a CEE or 2 ground rods, the H2O pipe, if it qualifies as an electrode, must be connected within 5' of entering the building.

The opinion that I get from EC's when this becomes an issue due to finished basements and access is that they think...............If I have a CEE or 2 rods then the H2O pipe is not necessary therefore I am only bonding it. I don't agree with this logic and this is the part that causes me headaches.

This is usually never a problem in commercial structures with building steel as you can jump from building steel directly to the water pipe (within 5') as long as the building steel is bonded, which it is required to be anyway.
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Interesting. Even a dipstick like me understands this part of the code. It is pretty clear IMPO.
 
jwelectric said:
The 2011 code went to extra lengths to explain that this first five feet is NOT electrode but just a connection point which we are allowed to hit the metal water pipe as outlined in the new 250.68(C).
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That is a nice change to the NEC - I know you, iwire and I have gone rounds about the philosophy surrounding that 5' chunk of water pipe. :)

Another nice thing is that the layout of the new section is so poor, I have an opportunity for at least one successful proposal next season. :D

If they want to discuss the interconnection of electrodes, why name it after a pair of them? If the interconnection of electrodes are to be spelled out, what is relevance of the mention of earth in 250.68(C)(2)(c)? Why have we lost all other electrodes as a means of connecting electrodes together?
 
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