CEE connection and extension

[kwired]

What is section that i need to enforce? If the wire type CEE is used it has to be continuous to the panel. unless irreversible splices are made.

First you need to determine if there are other grounding electrodes present, if there is only one of them needs to be connected to the unspliced grounding electrode conductor, the others can be (don't have to be) connected via bonding jumpers.

If your CEE is the only grounding electrode then the GEC will run to your only electrode and there are no bonding jumpers to other electrodes.

250.64(C) is the section that says GEC must be continuous.

250.50 mentions that all electrodes present (and describes what is an electrode via other sections) must be bonded together to form the "grounding electrode system"

250.53(C) mentions the bonding jumpers.

No where does it specifically say you must run a GEC to each electrode, it only says you must have a grounding electrode conductor, and that you can use bonding jumpers to tie electrodes together to form a grounding electrode system.

This usually means you will run a full size GEC to water pipe electrodes or building steel electrodes if present and can run reduced sized conductors as permitted to rods, pipes, plates, CEE's. Those smaller permitted conductors are typically what is connected via bonding jumper to the full sized GEC when it is done that way.

 

[petersonra]

What is section that i need to enforce? If the wire type CEE is used it has to be continuous to the panel. unless irreversible splices are made.

actually as written, you would be in violation if you ran the CEE to the panel without a break. the way it is written there is a required connection to the CEE. That has to be made with an appropriate connector.

I do not think there is a prohibition on having a tail hanging out but you can't make the connection to the tail because it is not part of the CEE.

 

[Ponchik]

250.64(C) is the section that says GEC must be continuous.

So another words, a CEE #4 Copper wire type has to be continuous from the footing all the way to the panel. If a piece of of CEE Wire Type installed in the footing and a tail is sticking out to be connected to the GEC at a later time is a violation?


I agree with the other comments that you made.

 

[kwired]

So another words, a CEE #4 Copper wire type has to be continuous from the footing all the way to the panel. If a piece of of CEE Wire Type installed in the footing and a tail is sticking out to be connected to the GEC at a later time is a violation?


I agree with the other comments that you made.

No. If the CEE is the only electrode available, then yes it must be continuous to the panel, or other places that are acceptable to land it. (that could be another topic). But it can be spliced with irreversible connecting methods that are listed for use as grounding, which effectively makes it continuous.

If the CEE is not the only electrode available, it could possibly tie to the GEC that is actually running unspliced to another electrode. Typically this will be either metallic water pipe electrode or building steel electrode. In that case the wire to the CEE is not the GEC it is simply a bonding jumper. It could also land on another electrode instead of the GEC, it is still called a bonding jumper in this case. The portion of metal water piping that is not within 5 feet of the water entrance can not be used as GEC or a bonding jumper to another electrode, so when bonding to metal water pipe electrodes keep that in mind.

 

[petersonra]

So another words, a CEE #4 Copper wire type has to be continuous from the footing all the way to the panel. If a piece of of CEE Wire Type installed in the footing and a tail is sticking out to be connected to the GEC at a later time is a violation?


I agree with the other comments that you made.

You can have the tail. You can't make the connection to the tail.

 

[Smart $]

You can have the tail. You can't make the connection to the tail.

Yes you can. It is not a "connection", per se, but must be an irreversible splice. That is, the tail becomes part of the GEC or electrode bonding jumper.

And regarding other responses saying it is an bonding jumper is not entirely correct. It is only a bonding jumper if the conductor bonds directly to another grounding electrode. If it connects directly to the panel, or to a another conductor, then it is a GEC.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

No. If the CEE is the only electrode available, then yes it must be continuous to the panel, or other places that are acceptable to land it. (that could be another topic). But it can be spliced with irreversible connecting methods that are listed for use as grounding, which effectively makes it continuous.
...

The CEE can never be run to a panel. It is no longer the CEE when it leaves the concrete. It becomes a grounding electrode conductor. The real question is where does this conductor stop being a CEE? At the point where it is no longer a CEE, you are permitted to connect the GEC to it. There is no requirement that the GEC connection to the grounding electrode be irreversible. In my opinion the tail coming out of the concrete is a GEC.

 

[kwired]

The CEE can never be run to a panel. It is no longer the CEE when it leaves the concrete. It becomes a grounding electrode conductor. The real question is where does this conductor stop being a CEE? At the point where it is no longer a CEE, you are permitted to connect the GEC to it. There is no requirement that the GEC connection to the grounding electrode be irreversible. In my opinion the tail coming out of the concrete is a GEC.

I didn't intend to make it sound like the CEE must or even can be run to a panel, yes I agree once you leave the concrete, even if one solid piece of copper, it is no longer an electrode once it is in less than 2 inches of concrete.

 

[jumper]

I want to thank the CMP for clearing that up. :slaphead:

Do they actually read these proposals?

I agree, and this is why IMO the CMP dropped the ball. They had the proposal right there in front of them and failed to clarify what was already not clearly written.

Yeah I would say that they dropped the ball also.

This sentence clarifies little IMO.

Panel Statement: Only the portion of an electrode that is in contact with the
earth can be called an electrode. The exposed portion of the rebar could be
used as a connection point but cannot be considered as the electrode.

The exposed "could be used...." does not really tell me what that section of rebar is.

The CMP says it is not an electrode and it cannot be part of a GEC according to 250.62.

250.62 Grounding Electrode Conductor Material. The
grounding electrode conductor shall be of copper, aluminum,
or copper-clad aluminum.

 

[Ponchik]

So another words, a CEE #4 Copper wire type has to be continuous from the footing all the way to the panel. If a piece of of CEE Wire Type installed in the footing and a tail is sticking out to be connected to the GEC at a later time is a violation?

No. If the CEE is the only electrode available, then yes it must be continuous to the panel, or other places that are acceptable to land it. (that could be another topic). But it can be spliced with irreversible connecting methods that are listed for use as grounding, which effectively makes it continuous.

What code section do i cite when enforcing that #4 copper CEE has to be continuous from the inside of the footing all the way to the panel?

Thanks

 

[Smart $]

What code section do i cite when enforcing that #4 copper CEE has to be continuous from the inside of the footing all the way to the panel?

Thanks

250.52(A)(3)(2)
250.62(C)

 

[Ponchik]

250.52(A)(3)(2)
250.62(C)

None of these cite that the CCE (wire type) has to be continuous from the inside of the footing all the way to the panel.

250.64(C) is about the GEC has to continuous. Which i agree.

But the question on hand is not about the GEC it is about the CEE(wire type). Does that have to be continuous from the inside of the footing to the panel or a connection can be made above the footing? And if a connection can be made above the footing does it have to irreversible?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

What code section do i cite when enforcing that #4 copper CEE has to be continuous from the inside of the footing all the way to the panel?

Thanks

The CEE does not exist outside of the concrete and can never be run to a panel or any other location. It is the Grounding Elctrode Conductor that must be continuous or connected using an irreversible method.

 

[petersonra]

The CEE does not exist outside of the concrete and can never be run to a panel or any other location. It is the Grounding Elctrode Conductor that must be continuous or connected using an irreversible method.

This seems to be difficult for some to get.

250.66 (B) Connections to Concrete-Encased Electrodes.
Where the grounding electrode conductor is connected to a
concrete-encased electrode as permitted in 250.52(A)(3),
that portion of the conductor that is the sole connection to
the grounding electrode shall not be required to be larger
than 4 AWG copper wire.

very clearly the code says the connection is to the CEE, not to a tail that is an extension of the CEE but not part of the CEE, as logically absurd as this is.

for those who would argue the tail is "connected" to the CEE and thus an irreversible splice to the tail is OK, I would agree that logically it is. However, I seem to recall that the only code legal way to make the connection is via a listed connector or welding, and the tail is not "connected" to the CEE either way.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I see the tail brought out of the concrete as the GEC. The extension of this tail to the panel requires the use of an irreversible connection.

However, Bob is correct that the code wording does not really permit this.

If there is rebar in the concrete, then just connect the #4 copper to the rebar and the #4 becomes a GEC and not a CEE.

 

[kwired]

The CEE does not exist outside of the concrete and can never be run to a panel or any other location. It is the Grounding Elctrode Conductor that must be continuous or connected using an irreversible method.

Exactly why I believe the sometimes allowed practice running the rebar so there is an accessible end outside the concrete is not acceptable. The actual CEE is within concrete encasement, this makes outside portion effectively a portion of the GEC, rebar is not permitted to be a GEC.

I think proper install is either 20' or more of 4AWG copper or 20' or more of 1/2 non insulated rebar, with attachment of GEC inside the concrete.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Exactly why I believe the sometimes allowed practice running the rebar so there is an accessible end outside the concrete is not acceptable. The actual CEE is within concrete encasement, this makes outside portion effectively a portion of the GEC, rebar is not permitted to be a GEC.

I think proper install is either 20' or more of 4AWG copper or 20' or more of 1/2 non insulated rebar, with attachment of GEC inside the concrete.

While that is code correct based on the code wording, I don't see any technical issues with letting the end of the #4 copper CEE stick out of the concrete and extending that to the panel via a code compliant connection.

 

[kwired]

While that is code correct based on the code wording, I don't see any technical issues with letting the end of the #4 copper CEE stick out of the concrete and extending that to the panel via a code compliant connection.

I don't either when it comes to extending the 4AWG copper. When the connection to the rebar is outside the concrete, I think it is in violation.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I don't either when it comes to extending the 4AWG copper. When the connection to the rebar is outside the concrete, I think it is in violation.

I would agree. The rebar, at that point, is no longer a CEE and it is not a material that the code permits to be used as a GEC.

 

[Ponchik]

I don't either when it comes to extending the 4AWG copper. When the connection to the rebar is outside the concrete, I think it is in violation.

I would agree. The rebar, at that point, is no longer a CEE and it is not a material that the code permits to be used as a GEC.

A violation of what section?

So, when you install GEC to a CEE then your run is continuous from the inside of the footing all the way to the panel? Unless, of course you can do irreversible connection. And you never have a CEE sticking out from the footing for a connection point to the GEC?