I'm doing a residential service change no uffer no ground rods, It has a existing # 4 solid going straight into the concrete it is visible I can see it . from my experience we really only see that kind of GEC in commercial application. The Inspecter faild me . I want to get some input before I call his supervisor thanks
CEE
- Thread starter SAP
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
The NEC describes what CEE is made of and how it is constructed.
The inspector cannot see through the concrete so they cannot verify it is a qualifying electrode.
In my opinion the inspector is within their authority to require a grounding electrode they can verify.
The inspector cannot see through the concrete so they cannot verify it is a qualifying electrode.
In my opinion the inspector is within their authority to require a grounding electrode they can verify.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Ditto what iwire said. Pound in 2 rods and move on, not worth trying to argue.
curt swartz
Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
- Location
- San Jose, CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
The ufer normally gets inspected prior to the footing being poured so they do see the 20' of copper or rebar. You could ask the building department if they can and are willing to access previous inspection records to confirm the Ufer was signed off. The only other option is to add rods and move on.
- Location
- Massachusetts
That is how I see it done here.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
So we have gone from mandating that a cce be used when present because it is a far better grounding electrode than a ground rod to replacing an existing cce with a ground rod? I don't see the sense in it. Hold your ear close to your screen and you might be able to here the sound of me banging my head on my desk.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Isn't there a way to test the existing CEE?
- Location
- Massachusetts
IMO there is no current technology that can verify the current NEC CCE requirements.
The NEC would have to add a perimeter say 25 ohms but substantiating any number might be hard.
When does an electrode become 'good enough'?
- Location
- Massachusetts
I can understand that thought and I appreciate the logic in it.
But if we can't see the CCE and there are no records of it being inspected before what is the logical thing to do?
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
I don't understand people's fascination with grounding electrodes any more than I understand a woman's reaction to a bouquet of roses, especially a ground rod.
The logical thing for me, knowing that half good cce is better than a pair of ground rods any day of the week, would be to inspect the connection to it and be happy.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Amen brother ... :lol::lol:
But if you were an inspector and you had to approve a mystery wire how can you do that?
How do you know it is a CCE?
MNSparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, MN
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor - 2023 NEC
I agree if the CEE can't be verified somehow, the next step would be to establish the next best thing, water pipe or two rods. But, I would still connect the CEE to the grounding system along with the other electrcodes. Is there a reason that one wouldn't want to do that? I can't think of one.
MNSparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, MN
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor - 2023 NEC
:slaphead:
I worded this poorly. What I meant was to establish the water pipe or, if no water pipe is available, two rods as the primary electrode. The water pipe would obviously be used already, but as a secondary to the CEE.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Of course I would have no way to be 100% sure without major surgery, but I would willing to take some educated guesses based on the building's age, check past permits and type of work that was done prior to most recent inspection, yada yada yada. If there was some foundation work done post '05 and I saw a piece of #4 copper sticking out I would feel just fine about it being a gec.
Coppersmith
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa, FL, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Be careful where you put those two rods. Best to miss the underground feeders, gas lines, and water lines. I know a call to 811 takes too long. I always cross my fingers and wince a bit while pounding.
When I go to a service change, I look for the GEC if it looks like there is a CEE but there is no access to it ( blank cover) I pull my service out look down the cavity and 9 times out of ten I can see the rebar and ground clamp I cut me a hole were the ground clamp is , put a 2 gang low voltage cut out box with a bell box cover. Now it is accessible. That's what I did today but instead of rebar going into the concrete it was bare # 4, if you take off blank cover you can clearly see it going into the concrete. I ended up getting it passed, I guess they are used to seeing ground rods, I find for me that it is easier to drive one ground rod right under the panel, then to try to locate the existing CEE, but most AHJ want you to drive 2 that's when it becomes a headache for me, I do whatever is easiest at the time
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
- Location
- Massachusetts
And I agree an inspector could do that.
At the same time I cannot fault an inspector for not doing that. So this brings me back to my original response. IMO the inspector can require a verifiable electrode.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
And since when have ground rods been verifiable?
Does the inspector measure the length, put a stamp on the rod, and then verify the stamp once it has been driven?
How does he know you did not cut five feet off the end?
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