Central Station

[B4T]

I have a customer who has a FACP in his store. The local fire marshall told him it must be Central Station monitored. Does CS have to call Fire Dept first or can owner be notified first. He is afraid of false alarms and Firemen breaking into his store.

 

[480sparky]

If he's worried about the damage firemen cause, let his building burn down first.

If he's still worried about the damage firemen cause breaking down the door, install a Knox Box.

 

[HotConductor]

I second the Knox Box- most townships in our area require them.

 

[iwire]

I have a customer who has a FACP in his store. The local fire marshall told him it must be Central Station monitored. Does CS have to call Fire Dept first or can owner be notified first. He is afraid of false alarms and Firemen breaking into his store.

The only person that can answer that question is the same Fire Marshal but I think it is a safe bet that the answer will be yes the CS must call the FD first.

I also recommend a Knox box, they are required by most cities and towns in this area.

http://www.knoxbox.com/store/rapidentrysystem.cfm?CFID=1608151&CFTOKEN=35455142

The Knox box can be fitted with alarm contacts so that owners security system can monitor the Knox box for unusual activity.


Now that said, what did the owner have in mind. Fire alarm would trip, the central station would call the owner, the owner would drive to the store, verify there was a fire then he would call the FD?

Maybe he wants the place to burn?

 

[RJohnsonMasterElectrician]

Now that said, what did the owner have in mind. Fire alarm would trip, the central station would call the owner, the owner would drive to the store, verify there was a fire then he would call the FD?

Maybe he wants the place to burn?

That type of notification is actually allowed in the NFPA 72 as long as the AHJ accepts it. I find it very stupid case in point:
In 2001/2002 Feburary or March it was below zero. The college in my town was monitored by Simplex. So when an alarm would happen, monitoring would call security office, security office would call the security officer on patrol to go to said building and check. Well 3AM call came in, above protocal was used. Officer on duty was on other side of Campus. I can't remember the exact dispatch but it was between the time Security got the call and the officer checking the call was like 7/10 minutes. So when we arrived in our big red trucks the second floor was rolling.
Since then all calls go directly to fire dispatch from monitoring and then security is called.OH yea we got lucky kids at winter break except one using a candle for light, other wise we would have had a bunch of dead college kids.

I beleive the code reference is
8.4.4.6.1

 

[iwire]

That type of notification is actually allowed in the NFPA 72 as long as the AHJ accepts it. I find it very stupid case in point:
In 2001/2002 Feburary or March it was below zero. The college in my town was monitored by Simplex. So when an alarm would happen, monitoring would call security office, security office would call the security officer on patrol to go to said building and check. Well 3AM call came in, above protocal was used. Officer on duty was on other side of Campus. I can't remember the exact dispatch but it was between the time Security got the call and the officer checking the call was like 7/10 minutes. So when we arrived in our big red trucks the second floor was rolling.
Since then all calls go directly to fire dispatch from monitoring and then security is called.OH yea we got lucky kids at winter break except one using a candle for light, other wise we would have had a bunch of dead college kids.

I believe the code reference is
8.4.4.6.1

In my opinion there is a big difference between a place with 24/7 security on site and a business owner that could be anywhere.

 

[crazyboy]

Add me to those in favor of a knox box. And also I can tell you that most fire departments are not going to go knocking down the door if there is just a head activated and there are no other signs.

 

[B4T]

Owner lives less than 10 minutes from his building. I agree this is a bad idea, but he wants that option. I will check with Fire Marshall and see where it goes

 

[480sparky]

Owner lives less than 10 minutes from his building. I agree this is a bad idea, but he wants that option. I will check with Fire Marshall and see where it goes

So what happens when the owner goes to Hawaii to catch some waves?

 

[B4T]

Everybody has cell phones.. he just calls one of his kids or an employee who feeds the cat on weekends

 

[crazyboy]

Everybody has cell phones.. he just calls one of his kids or an employee who feeds the cat on weekends

And in the meantime his building has become fully engulfed in flames...

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The information in Annex A to NFPA 72 indicates that the term "immediately" as applied to the time to retransmit the alarm to the dispatch center or owner means without "unreasonable delay", but goes on to say that this time should be less than 4 minutes. If the alarm service is calling the owner 4 minutes into the fire, you will not see apparatus on scene until at least 10 minutes into the fire in most cases. The loss of the 4 minutes at the beginning can mean the difference between a room and contents fire and a structure fire that results in the loss of the building. I can't imagine a fire marshall that would permit that type of delay in the fire dispatch center receiving the alarm. However, if the local codes do not require the fire alarm system, then I don't think that the fire marshall could require any specific type of notification.

 

[480sparky]

Everybody has cell phones.. he just calls one of his kids or an employee who feeds the cat on weekends

"We're sorry, but you call cannot be completed at this time. Please try again later......."

 

[jrdsg]

Fire Monitoring

Fire Monitoring

Whether AHJ insists on Fire Dept. being called first or not, building owner should beware of invalidating his insurance coverage by injecting procedural delay beyond UL/ULC specifications for monitored systems.

Wonder if making owner sign a waiver would protect you in the event your customer's premise burned down and the owner had asked for an out-of-spec arrangement.

The cost of fighting something like this in court could be the end of your business. We install all commercial fire monitoring to ULC standard now whether we're certifying the job or not, to protect ourselves from a legal nightmare.

 

[Security101]

Usually and in most jurisdictions the FD is called first, for the reasons sited, and we consider it a must.

Now we can also immediately call the owner (after fire dispatch) and verify whether or not he wishes us to disregard. At that point we can cancel the FD at owners (recorded) request.

As a former firefighter, investigator, and alarm co owner - I feel they should definitely be dispatched first, then the owner(s) notified (using owner supplied call list).

Seconds matter - period!

Also, the FD these days are very good about doing no extra damage (especially on fire alarms) like breaking down doors etc. Usually it's a walk around, window peering, sniffing event until owners/keyholders arrive, unless there is evidence of a fire...

Get the KnoxBox!

Jim

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...Now we can also immediately call the owner (after fire dispatch) and verify whether or not he wishes us to disregard. At that point we can cancel the FD at owners (recorded) request. ...

Jim,
Does the FD really return to quaters without going to the scene? Around here the first due engine will continue to the scene, but not with lights and sirens. The other responding companies will return to the station.

 

[Security101]

That kinda depends on the situation and the length of time on the road - but it does vary.

Usually they wont charge the alarm owner if we catch them before a full response has left the barn. If they all got on the road - charge is possible.

Usually with the call list we can disregard FD within the first minute (but our central is fast, really fast and that helps. It's really subjective though...

Jim

 

[iwire]

Around here the first due engine will continue to the scene, but not with lights and sirens. The other responding companies will return to the station.

It's more or less the same here. I listen to the local fire dept and no mater who calls in and cancels an alarm some piece of apparatus will continue (usually an Engine) 'with caution' to the building and verify what is going on.

 

[Security101]

It's kinda protocol around here on commercial and multi family alarms, but not on residential alarms unless it sounds like they need to check it out.

I've not had a customer say they got charged for the code1 (no lights and sirens) response of one truck...

Jim

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It's kinda protocol around here on commercial and multi family alarms, but not on residential alarms unless it sounds like they need to check it out.

I've not had a customer say they got charged for the code1 (no lights and sirens) response of one truck...

Jim

Do they charge for every response? Around here there is a charge only if you have more than 3 false in a 6 month time frame.