Challenger Contactor - unknown if original configuration

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hillbilly1 said:
Betting the lights were all 240 volt, and no neutral is present, so the just grabbed the ground for the 120 volt contactor coil. Definitely need to change both contactors to 240 volt coils. With voltages the op is getting, probably bucking phases with another circuit when the contacts are closed, since the “line” side of the bottom contactor is fed from the line side of the top contactor.
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Lights were all 240 volt and they had different sets of lights wired in every configuration they could think of. Owner didn't want exterior lights to ever come on, so it currently feeds 3 400W Metal Halide lamps via disconnect.
 
Sorry if someone already said this, if so I'll take my crayons back to the corner and be quiet. But it looks like this white wire is connecting a point that is always hot directly to the neutral bar.
 

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Sea Nile said:
Sorry if someone already said this, if so I'll take my crayons back to the corner and be quiet. But it looks like this white wire is connecting a point that is always hot directly to the neutral bar.
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Fairly certain you are seeing the coil tabs or terminals just below the larger setscrews. The white does appear to be landed on the SS but it is on the coil terminal.
 
ptonsparky said:
Fairly certain you are seeing the coil tabs or terminals just below the larger setscrews. The white does appear to be landed on the SS but it is on the coil terminal.
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Thanks, I was hesitant to chime in because I figured surely you all would have zeroed in on that in 5 seconds or less.
 
hillbilly1 said:
Betting the lights were all 240 volt, and no neutral is present, so the just grabbed the ground for the 120 volt contactor coil. Definitely need to change both contactors to 240 volt coils. With voltages the op is getting, probably bucking phases with another circuit when the contacts are closed, since the “line” side of the bottom contactor is fed from the line side of the top contactor.
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Both line sides of contactors are supplied by the fused disconnect.

We can't tell what is controlling the contactor coils or even if they are separately controlled.

If there is no automation to the controls or at least no automation desired the whole thing is kind of a waste. Simple 30 amp double pole toggle switch would accomplish the same thing and cost a lot less. Only thing that maybe is needed would be the fuse holder assembly if the supply side would happen to be a feeder tap. If that the case a simpler and less cost individual breaker enclosure could replace the whole thing.
 
There is a white conductor landed on the L3 terminal of the lower contactor, I bet it is supplying the ungrounded side of the control circuit
 
kwired said:
There is a white conductor landed on the L3 terminal of the lower contactor, I bet it is supplying the ungrounded side of the control circuit
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Yup...
 

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It's official, I must be crazy if I'm the only one who has a problem with this.

The line from the fuse goes directly to top right connector of the contactor.

Screenshot_20230211-103739.png

This is a close up of a similar contactor terminal.

Screenshot_20230211-103432.png

This terminal is connected directly to the top right terminal of the overload relay (or whatever its called)

Screenshot_20230211-103932.png

Here is a close up of what that terminal looks like on the exact model.

Screenshot_20230211-085826~2.png

That terminal is connected directly to the neutral bar

Screenshot_20230211-104048.png

If I'm wrong about this please explain it to me. Either way I won't harp on it anymore.
 
Sea Nile said:
It's official, I must be crazy if I'm the only one who has a problem with this.

The line from the fuse goes directly to top right connector of the contactor.

View attachment 2563992

This is a close up of a similar contactor terminal.

View attachment 2563993

This terminal is connected directly to the top right terminal of the overload relay (or whatever its called)

View attachment 2563994

Here is a close up of what that terminal looks like on the exact model.

View attachment 2563995

That terminal is connected directly to the neutral bar

View attachment 2563996

If I'm wrong about this please explain it to me. Either way I won't harp on it
anymore.
Click to expand...
🤔
Do you mean equipment ground terminal bar. I also believe it is attached to the back plate with a non approved type of screw.
 
Sea Nile said:
It's official, I must be crazy if I'm the only one who has a problem with this.

The line from the fuse goes directly to top right connector of the contactor.

View attachment 2563992
That is where I would expect it to land
This is a close up of a similar contactor terminal.

View attachment 2563993
That is coil terminal, other coil terminal is on opposite side.
This terminal is connected directly to the top right terminal of the overload relay (or whatever its called)

View attachment 2563994

Here is a close up of what that terminal looks like on the exact model.

View attachment 2563995
The further back terminal there is a coil terminal, the further forward terminals are power pole terminals.
That terminal is connected directly to the neutral bar

View attachment 2563996
As mentioned that is likely an EGC bar and not a neutral bar, unless it would happen to be service equipment. That kind of tells us the contactor likely has a 120 volt coil even though it should be connected to a neutral and not an EGC.
If I'm wrong about this please explain it to me. Either way I won't harp on it anymore.
Click to expand...
Replies within quoted content.
 
Thanks for taking the time to explain it. Without actually seeing the components it's hard to tell exactly how the conductors land (in reference to the further back terminal vs. the coil terminal). Zooming in you can see a sliver of the white insulation and it appears to me that they are both landing on the same point. Must be an optical illusion. I see I called the equipment grounding bar the wrong name, but that's not the main point I was making. The main point was it "appears" to be a direct short. An EGC would be just as bad as a neutral bar in that case, so it doesn't take away from the problem this optical illusion gave me. Thanks everyone, I think I beat the dead horse on this thread enough.
 
Sea Nile said:
Thanks for taking the time to explain it. Without actually seeing the components it's hard to tell exactly how the conductors land (in reference to the further back terminal vs. the coil terminal). Zooming in you can see a sliver of the white insulation and it appears to me that they are both landing on the same point. Must be an optical illusion. I see I called the equipment grounding bar the wrong name, but that's not the main point I was making. The main point was it "appears" to be a direct short. An EGC would be just as bad as a neutral bar in that case, so it doesn't take away from the problem this optical illusion gave me. Thanks everyone, I think I beat the dead horse on this thread enough.
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But is not a direct short, just an illusion to you that it is landing on the terminal with the ungrounded conductor. I see it as landing on the coil terminal which I expect one of the coil terminals to be a grounded conductor if the coil is rated 120 volts.

The white conductor on the "L3" terminal of the bottom contactor, we can't see where it goes, presuming not the EGC bus, also presuming as I earlier said is the ungrounded supply side of the control circuit and just happens to be using a white conductor that by code shouldn't be white, will still function though.
 
Sea Nile said:
I think I beat the dead horse on this thread enough.
Click to expand...
beatdeadhorse.gif
 
Sea Nile said:
It's official, I must be crazy if I'm the only one who has a problem with this.

The line from the fuse goes directly to top right connector of the contactor.

View attachment 2563992

This is a close up of a similar contactor terminal.

View attachment 2563993

This terminal is connected directly to the top right terminal of the overload relay (or whatever its called)

View attachment 2563994

Here is a close up of what that terminal looks like on the exact model.

View attachment 2563995

That terminal is connected directly to the neutral bar

View attachment 2563996

If I'm wrong about this please explain it to me. Either way I won't harp on it anymore.
Click to expand...
Yeah thats what I was wondting in post #2, appears to be a dead short for this dead horse.
 
hillbilly1 said:
It looks like an ASCO contactor. They make them for a lot of other manufacturers. Siemens. GE, Square D just to name a few.
Click to expand...
Westinghouse A200 contactor, since Challenger was a part of Westinghouse they rebranded a lot of Westinghouse components as Challenger.
 
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