Changing Disposal and 2014 NEC

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al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

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Location
Minnesota
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Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
This is a question based on the 2014 NEC. What will your local electrical inspector, under the 2014 NEC, say about the scenario below?

I work in an area that has a lot of "all-metal wiring methods" in existing homes built after WWII. A common hookup for a residential disposal is to have a 1/2" flexible metallic conduit running from an above counter backsplash mounted switch down into the undersink cabinet where the 1/2" flex directly connects to the disposal.

I have a situation where an air switch is desired to be mounted on the back sink top, beside an instant Cup-O-Soup hot water dispenser. Both the hot water dispenser and the disposal will share the 15 Amp 120 Volt branch circuit formerly dedicated only to the disposal. For those who haven't seen it, there are two receptacles on the air switch module, one for the disposal and one for the hot water dispenser, and only one can be energized at a time. Given how briefly most disposal operation is, this works out just fine in normal residential use. Both Disposal and Hot Water Dispenser are cord and plug connected.

The problem is the hardwired 1/2" flex whip gets altered into a surface mounted receptacle for the air switch module to plug into, thus invoking the 2014 NEC requirements for both GFCI and AFCI protection at the new receptacle outlet.

In strapping down the 1/2" flex, shortening it a little, and adding a surface mounted junction box with a two gang raised metal cover, I can connect the flex whip conductors to the LINE terminals of a blank face GFCI device, and, in turn, connect the LOAD side of the GFCI to the LINE side of an Outlet Branch Circuit AFCI device.

Only the disposal and the Cup-O-Soup hot water dispenser are being installed. There is no remodel or open walls. This seems to be the minimum 2014 NEC compliant solution.

What would your local authority having jurisdiction say?
 
My inspector would probably look at the bill for his inspection, look at two deadfront high-tech devices, the air switch, the insta-hot, the cord sets and boxes and my time and say "Dang! These people must really like eating soup!"
 
JDB3 said:
What about the 2014 AFCI requirement, also?
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I agree. And since the flex disposal whip is only being modified from a wirenut outlet to a receptacle outlet, no new outlet is created, so this is a "modification" and falls under 2014 210.12(B)(2)
 
ToddN45 said:
Per NEC 210.12 The AFCI needs to come first
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This falls under 210.12(B)(2) which says the AFCI can be at the first receptacle outlet. That happens to be the Outlet Branch Circuit Type AFCI device with its receptacle plugins. The blank face GFCI is NOT a receptacle and therefore not the "first receptacle outlet".
 
2014 says modification or recept replacement AFCI protect -- within 6" of a sink recept GFCI protect -- both reset buttons readily accessible. I am not thrilled with the code nanny state of affairs as we need to protect the mice eating away the disposal cords. IMO the need for double protection is a bit over kill and if the most resrictive type of protection was used you would be safe.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Some manufacturers have a afci/gfci breaker.
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In my OP I describe a disposal replacement on existing flex wiring method from the 50s through the 80s. There are tens of thousands of these in my work area. The disposal branch circuit is almost always a multiwire home run. So any AFCI/GFCI combination breaker based solution becomes really difficult and expensive, if outright unavailable.
 
al hildenbrand said:
This is a question based on the 2014 NEC. What will your local electrical inspector, under the 2014 NEC, say about the scenario below?

I work in an area that has a lot of "all-metal wiring methods" in existing homes built after WWII. A common hookup for a residential disposal is to have a 1/2" flexible metallic conduit running from an above counter backsplash mounted switch down into the undersink cabinet where the 1/2" flex directly connects to the disposal.

I have a situation where an air switch is desired to be mounted on the back sink top, beside an instant Cup-O-Soup hot water dispenser. Both the hot water dispenser and the disposal will share the 15 Amp 120 Volt branch circuit formerly dedicated only to the disposal. For those who haven't seen it, there are two receptacles on the air switch module, one for the disposal and one for the hot water dispenser, and only one can be energized at a time. Given how briefly most disposal operation is, this works out just fine in normal residential use. Both Disposal and Hot Water Dispenser are cord and plug connected.

The problem is the hardwired 1/2" flex whip gets altered into a surface mounted receptacle for the air switch module to plug into, thus invoking the 2014 NEC requirements for both GFCI and AFCI protection at the new receptacle outlet.

In strapping down the 1/2" flex, shortening it a little, and adding a surface mounted junction box with a two gang raised metal cover, I can connect the flex whip conductors to the LINE terminals of a blank face GFCI device, and, in turn, connect the LOAD side of the GFCI to the LINE side of an Outlet Branch Circuit AFCI device.

Only the disposal and the Cup-O-Soup hot water dispenser are being installed. There is no remodel or open walls. This seems to be the minimum 2014 NEC compliant solution.

What would your local authority having jurisdiction say?
Click to expand...

"Nice job"
 
iwire said:
That was my thought as well. :)
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I've seen these small volume near-boiling-water dispensers used for single cups of brew or instant coffee, teas, ramen noodles, individual servings of instant oatmeal. . . etc.
 
al hildenbrand said:
I've seen these small volume near-boiling-water dispensers used for single cups of brew or instant coffee, teas, ramen noodles, individual servings of instant oatmeal. . . etc.
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Sure but is it worth THAT much money?

$150 - Permit and inspection (typical around here)
$200 - Insta-hot and dual air switch (lower end versions)
$20 - Dead front GFCI
$27 - AFCI receptacle
$24 - WM 5744-2 box
$7 - cord set for disposal
$175 - labor. It shouldn't take more than an hour to actually install, but you have permits and materials to get, travel time, etc.

I don't drill granite countertops, so if the air switch needs a hole, it'll be an extra $75 to get someone out to do it.

We're at $600 to put in a cheap hot water dispenser in a Corian or Formica countertop or almost $700 in granite. I could certainly find a small professional espresso machine that also makes hot water for a little bit more than that. Or, I could save $500 and buy a really nice kettle or electric kettle and be done with it. Those people better make a lot of hot water ;)
 
PetrosA said:
Sure but is it worth THAT much money?
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:?
So, in the same scenario, you really are going to turn down your customer's desire to pay you to wire what they want to have, because they SHOULD wait for the kettle to heat, in your opinion?
 
al hildenbrand said:
:?
So, in the same scenario, you really are going to turn down your customer's desire to pay you to wire what they want to have, because they SHOULD wait for the kettle to heat, in your opinion?
Click to expand...

If the customer wants it, I'll install it but in my experience people who are willing to spend exorbitant amounts of money on a hot water dispenser are few and far between. I suspect that the ones who aren't going to balk at the $600 number will want a higher end one and the job will sell for a couple hundred for my work plus the plumber plus the dispenser. My doubts come from the last 8 years of work doing lots of kitchen remodels where I've hooked up 1 (one) insta-hot during that time plus the sense that these numbers don't jive. Someone who want's a product like this is looking for a way to save on running a second line to their sink, IOW, they're looking for a cheap solution. Once you go from under $200 to buy the product and tack on another $400 to install it, that same customer is going to think it through again since it's obviously no bargain. The seriously spending customer isn't even going to think of buying a "cheap" $125 insta-hot and certainly won't be concerned about what it costs to run a dedicated line to the sink. They're dropping enough money on the kitchen that $1500-$2000 for hot water doesn't concern them. The truly serious customer is just going to spend four or five grand on a built in coffee maker with hot water dispenser and be done with it. I guess there will be exceptions where it might be cost prohibitive to run additional lines to the sink, but they'll probably be few and far between.
 
al hildenbrand said:
What would your local authority having jurisdiction say?
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If all you are doing is adding that insta-hot, my local AHJ is not even getting contacted as there is no requirement to even file for a permit on this job.

Will I install additional GFCI or AFCI in that situation? Will have to wait until that job comes up to find out I guess, but the GFCI is a possibility, the AFCI is probably not happening if no one is forcing it, but that is a whole other thread.
 
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