Chaulk up one for the team

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

The other day I got a call from AHJ asking if I was in the sub division,there was a problem...So off I go...Met with the inspector this is a 5400 sq. ft home that was getting a final.We have a 2 part inspection rough then final.I asked what was wrong and he told me that there was a receptacle in the laundry room within 6 ft. of the sink that wasn`t stickered gfci protected.He asked if it was on the gfci circuit.No I told him,now he says that it has to be if within 6 ft. of the sink,We are under 2002 code here. I looked at him a bit strange and said why it`s not required to be gfci protected.He insisted it had to be so out comes the code book I go to 210.8 and asked him to show it to me that it had to be gfci.After about 15 min. of looking he calls his chief and explains what there is.The chief sounded about as bewildered as he was.I told him that when 99 came in it took that out of the senario and that 2002 only addreses a wet bar sink and this isnt a wet bar.Well it should be he tells me.Yes I agreed i think it should be but since the NEC is what we go by then it doesn`t have to be gfci.he passed it reluctently but I gained allot of respect on that one.If required we will follow but just because it is what they think it should be doesn`t mean that I`ll fold.Just wanted to vent a bit here.The moral,if right fight if wrong fold the hand

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

Amen to that. I enjoy being challenged about the code, I think it keeps an inspector sharp.

 

[roger]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

Allen, you were on the instructor pedastal in this situation and you did a good job.

You have indicated in this post and in the past that you are on a first name basis with these inspectors, with this being the case, it's good to see you can learn from each other. As Ryan says, a good inspector is more than willing to be challenged with out retribution to the challenger.

Roger

[ February 19, 2004, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[caj1962]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

This not an inspector bashing post because it could happen to any of us if we do not stay current in our trade. This forum is a good place for that endeavor. I have worked with several "journymen" who when asked about code say they haven't looked at a code since they became a real electrician. So sad this is. This where mistakes begin to become habits. On the other hand there are those who wire any old way when someone isn't watching and hope the inspector or others catch them.
I also recently ran into an inspector who would not budge on an issue, it was a fire inspector, who did not like a hard wird quad recpt. Said they were not safe and demanded we take them out of service "right now" I challeged this as to why they were not safe? His reply was because it would be way to easy to overload the circuit protecting it. My reply was that he could only enforce code and not a personal wish. Didn't go over big with this gentleman so we called his supervisor. Supervisor arrived and agreed with me.

 

[electricman2]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

How many out there carry their code book with them? Mine is on the front seat of my truck, looks pretty rough now from use some pages are falling out. LOL

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

Code book and road map are part of my tools.Would look foolish arguing code without the book.
Glad Allen stood up to him,just hope there is no retaliation.

[ February 19, 2004, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

Originally posted by electricman2:
How many out there carry their code book with them?

Let's see...I have the NEC and the NEC handbook in my office. I have the NEC and the McGraw Hills handbook in my truck. I have the NEC at my house in my study.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

IMO, having the book close by is a virtual necessity when dealing with anything out of the (very) ordinary. Nobody can memorize all that stuff, but its not too hard to think maybe I should look this one up first...

 

[drg]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

Retaliation does not always have to be concern nor should it be for a diligent professional who abides by the established rules in any trade ,
how a person may express his or her self may be a reason for some sort of "retaliation" but by no means should anyone feel that they are going to be retaliated against for simply following a established code,
The code book is not a manual for arguing issues, but a standard for people in the trade trying to do a important job..........again "how" you represent yourself during these moments is very important.

John

[ February 19, 2004, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: drg ]

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

Thanks for the good word guys,I have no problem stepping back when I need to,As far as I am concerned we all learn every day we go out there.But as far as I THINK IT SHOULD BE A CERTAIN WAY,JUST BECAUSE !!!! THAT GLASS DOESN`T HOLD WATER.We must deal with the NEC each and every day.I don`t worry about retaliation,since when I challange an inspectors ruling I do so with ammunition The same book as they must use!!
If and when I do challenge ,I do it in a professional and courious manner,Yes I am on a first name basis with all my inspectors and they all have my nextel #,I let them all know that I am only a beep away and willing to work with them.
Rapore is almost as important as knowledge.But respect goes even further

 

[noxx]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

Originally posted by electricman2:
How many out there carry their code book with them? Mine is on the front seat of my truck, looks pretty rough now from use some pages are falling out. LOL

Absolutely, you look silly presenting a point of code without the book in your hand. I'm on my second copy of the 2002 (got lazy and paid for a pre-tabbed one this time around).

 

[charlie]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

I taught third year apprentices for eight years. Every class had pounded into them that their training has just started and will never finish. They need to subscribe to EC&M, Electrical Contractor, IAEI News, etc. to stay on top of the NEC. With all the changes in the industry, they will be left behind if they do not keep current. In addition to all that (restroom reading) they need to go to Code update classes when they are available even if they have to pay for them themselves.

 

[eprice]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

Originally posted by electricman2:
How many out there carry their code book with them?

The question caused me to look over at the stack of books I have on my desk beside me. Sitting there is the IRC, the IBC, the IPC, the IMC, the IFGC, the IEEC, and the IFC. 2000 and 2003 flavors of each of these, since we still have permits out there issued under the 2000 codes. There is, of course, the 2002 NEC. the 1999 NEC is there too, not because I have much need for it now days, but because I haven't moved it to the archives yet

I am smart enough to know that I'm not smart enough to know all there is to know in all of those books So I believe Allen or any other contractor has not only the right, but the responsibility to question me or another inspector if the inspector makes a call that doesn't seem right. There have been times that I have taught a contractor something about the code that they didn't realize, and there have been times that a contractor has taught me something about the code that I didn't realize.

The title of this thread is "Chaulk one up for the team". In the case of most of the contractors that I work with each day, I believe that they and I are on the same team. We are all trying to build buildings that are safe and meet code. None of us "get it right" 100% of the time, but as long as each can feel free to communicate code concerns and questions in a friendly, reasonable way, the team works. There are some contractors out there who know little about the code and couldn't care less. These are not on my team and they're not on the same team as the responsible contractors.

Hang in there Allen, you did good. Hopefuly the inspector in your case, will take the experience in a positive way and gain new respect for your knowledge of the code.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

Eprice that is what I meant when I posted (chalk up one for the team !!! )This is a rapidly growing area.We expect to wire and final out 2,500 homes this year 500 up from last year.That figure might be low we are getting hounded to take on more builders.This is what i always tell my inspectors.We have a long job ahead of us.We can either work together or against eachother.But we both work for the public.I have no problem being code compliant even with addendums providing we are properly notified.But we both must read from the same page of the same book,and the title is the N.E.C.All of the inspectors here can call me on any inspection and if I can`t get there another area manager will be there in a few min.Last year when there were several new inspectors hired there were allot of problems with them shiny new books and a title,but most have come around and understand.Still have one out there I will deal with (can`t mention his first name here moderators have written to me on that one)

 

[stamcon]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

Does the 2002 code require the use of "GFCI Protected" stickers or is this another "show me where the NEC or GFCI receptacle manufacturer requires me to install a label"?

[ February 20, 2004, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: stamcon ]

 

[tom baker]

Re: Chaulk up one for the team

Art 406.3
(b) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked ?No Equipment Ground.? An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.

Back to the thread of this post, Wayne and Charlie had very good replies, I will only say that as far as the NEC goes, the more I know the less I know. A lot of the questions on the forum are from not breaking out the NEC. Of course it helps to have the electronic version of the NEC, I found the above pretty quickly with it.