Chicago Fires

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Jim W in Tampa said:
If you were getting a new home build and the choice was yours at no extra cost what would you pick and why ?
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Haha, you got me. If cost was no factor, I would pipe it because I've never piped a house and it would be a learning experience, and also because I have a garage full of THHN in all sorts of colors. :D

But back to reality..

In this market (New England), you simply cannot be competitive if you insist on pipe and wire for everything. Most of the jobs I do are MC cable, and the construction division of the company I work for uses NM cable all the time on their projects, mainly apartment complexes and condos.

So it's a reality of this market- you use cable or you don't work. Now, I realize it's different in other parts of the nation. One of my coworkers came from Arizona. He said he used pipe for everything, as it's the "norm" there. Likewise, some people who came up from the South from one of our sister companies to see how we did things were very surprised to see a supermarket wired with MC cable. Same thing- they piped the whole thing.

So I guess we really like our cable here. :)
 
the bottom line ...

the bottom line ...

seems funny to me that nobody has yet to say that no matter what wiring method is used, pipe, mc, or nm, if the final make-up of the wires is not proper, then there will be a posibility of a fire ... bottom line ... workmanship ... m
 
mario said:
seems funny to me that nobody has yet to say that no matter what wiring method is used, pipe, mc, or nm, if the final make-up of the wires is not proper, then there will be a posibility of a fire ... bottom line ... workmanship ... m
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We must assume that all connections and splices are equal.Bad splices will easily cause a fire.And if i have a fire inside a box i would prefer that box was steel.
 
MC is starting to be used in my area outside of Chicago and its suburbs for commerical applications. NM is common for residential outside of the same area. Many local codes specify that more than 4 or 6 appartments in a complex is commerical not residential and prohibit NM.
Don
 
In this market (New England), you simply cannot be competitive if you insist on pipe and wire for everything.
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That is why the code would have to require the conduit. If the code can justify the AFCI and tamperproof receptacles, it could also justify a requirement for metal clad cable or conduit. It won't only because the NM manufacturers have enough clout to prevent a pipe code.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The former Chicago Chief Electrical Inspector submitted this comment to CMP2.
In Chicago for the past 50 plus years 100% of legally constructed dwelling type structures have used metal raceway and metal boxes as the wiring method for the fixed wiring in dwellings. I have attached substantiation in the form of NIFRS Data that compares Chicago vs National residential electrical fires. The data shows that Chicago, which uses metal raceway exclusively for dwelling occupancies, has (4) times fewer residential electrical fires as a percentage of total residential fires, than found nationally. Moreover, there are nearly (3) times fewer fires caused by the distribution which includes the fixed or installed wiring.
Don
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That's not a fair comparison. They are comparing Chicago (with very strict regulations and inspections) vs. the entire rest of the country. Many parts of the country have no inspections at all, and no regulations at all. Even the NEC is optional.

So they should compare Chicago to another city with almost the same codes but without the EMT requirement.

Also, from the statistics, it looks like electrical fires cause about 1% of the 3300 deaths. If Chicago's population is about 1/100 the US population (a guess on my part), then they saved about 1/3 of a life a year. But how many people froze to death last year in Chicago because they couldn't find housing? Or how many lives could have been saved if all that money was spent on healthcare? Or how many lives could be saved if all that money went to law enforcement?

I have a lot of respect for Don's opinions, but I just can't agree that there is a big advantage of conduit in a residential building. It really seems like a waste to me.

Steve
 
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If you go to the nfpa web site @ nfpa.org there's a lot of interesting stats.
Under research and reports you'll find stats on some of the worst disasters in our history.

Every time the Chicago Fire comes up in conversation it makes me wonder about how on the same day a fire started in Wisconsin that killed nearly five times as many people but almost nobody knows about that one.
 
Steve,
Also, from the statistics, it looks like electrical fires cause about 1% of the 3300 deaths.
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I didn't give you the number for deaths and injuries that result from fires of electrical origin. These types of fires account for 1.1% of the injuries. 3.2% of the deaths and 1.2% of the dollar loss.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Steve,

I didn't give you the number for deaths and injuries that result from fires of electrical origin. These types of fires account for 1.1% of the injuries. 3.2% of the deaths and 1.2% of the dollar loss.
Don
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So 1% of the fires (started by electrical wiring) causes over 3% of the deaths. That's interesting. Maybe electrical fires are more likely to create toxic smoke.

But I would still like to see a fairer statistic comparing the number of electrical fires in Chicago, with somewhere more similar, like say New York for example.

I think too many people equate a simple statistic with proof of cause and effect. (I don't think the press or politicians do anything to dispel this belief.)

Steve
 
Steve,
I have a lot of respect for Don's opinions, but I just can't agree that there is a big advantage of conduit in a residential building. It really seems like a waste to me.
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I am just following the lead of the manufacturers...they make code rules to increase their bottom line....why can't electricians do the same? :D

Don
 
Steve,
But I would still like to see a fairer statistic comparing the number of electrical fires in Chicago, with somewhere more similar, like say New York for example.
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I didn't think that New York permitted NM either. In my opinion none of the electrical fire cause statistics are vaild for any use, but they were used to require AFCIs. The Chicago statement is one of the reasons that the 2011 code will let you run the branch circuit in EMT or metal clad cable to the first outlet without AFCI protection. I expect that with this rule we may see receptacle type AFCIs in the future.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Steve,

The Chicago statement is one of the reasons that the 2011 code will let you run the branch circuit in EMT or metal clad cable to the first outlet without AFCI protection.
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Let me get this straight. So we will be able to run the first part of the branch circuit in a metal raceway? How does that protect the circuit conductors from a "glowing fault" due to a loose splice or other mechanical connection? I don't see how raceway has any bearing on the issue, when the conductors inside the raceway can be melting down because somebody forgot to tighten a wirenut. This thing gets dumber by the second.

Have these people who push the AFCI become so self-deceived that they will put out any lie and expect us all to believe it? It seems that way. :roll:
 
Peter,
Let me get this straight. So we will be able to run the first part of the branch circuit in a metal raceway? How does that protect the circuit conductors from a "glowing fault" due to a loose splice or other mechanical connection?
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With a metal raceway system and metal boxes, any type of fault is much less likely to start a fire.
I don't see how raceway has any bearing on the issue, when the conductors inside the raceway can be melting down because somebody forgot to tighten a wirenut.
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How does a loose wirenut or other poor connection cause the wire in the raceway to "melt"?
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Peter,

With a metal raceway system and metal boxes, any type of fault is much less likely to start a fire.

How does a loose wirenut or other poor connection cause the wire in the raceway to "melt"?
Don
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Sorry, I am just venting some frustration over the AFCI beast that seems to get bigger by the day.

Bad terminology - the wire isn't "melting," it's just getting really hot within the box and the raceway near the fault. Maybe metal boxes and raceways are less fire prone, but I just see these rules getting out of control when safe, code compliant wiring is sufficient enough to protect against fire hazards. I don't want to see AFCI rules or "Chicago wiring systems" expanded....there is no justification for them to be mandated. Let them be a design choice.
 
I did have that rare occasion to actually see a fire start.It was romex in a 4 square box with raised cover for a quad.Box was mounted on T1-11 plywood.The cause was poor connections inside the box.Flames did start coming out of the holes in the box.Quick thinking on my part put it out in under a minute (water after turning breaker off ).Not sure what this proves or doesnt prove.In this case emt would not have saved the building.Had nobody smelled or caught this fast the building would likely have burned. No matter what we predict or say one thing is certain and that is emt is safer than romex but does it rate the cost ? How much is a life worth ?Buildings can be replaced but --------------
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Peter,

Given a code compliant intallations NM is safe, but in my opinion a metal clad cable or metal conduit is safer.
Don
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But that is like saying that "cars are safe, but tanks are safer". It is a true statement, but does mean we should all drive tanks?
 
ryan_618 said:
But that is like saying that "cars are safe, but tanks are safer". It is a true statement, but does mean we should all drive tanks?
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If you are a pedestrian, the answer is No!!

:grin:
 
Ryan,
But that is like saying that "cars are safe, but tanks are safer". It is a true statement, but does mean we should all drive tanks?
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Yes it is exactly like that. Safety has a price. The only question is how much safety can we afford? Where is the line?
Don
 
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