Chicago homes

Status
Not open for further replies.
iwire said:
Should it be code or up to the HO if they want pipe or cable when building the home?
Click to expand...
That's the crux of the whole question. It does sorta smack of socialism to require something certain to possibly prevent another o'leary cow situation or London fire.

England has just as catestrophic of a fire in London as Chicago did, except they took a different approach. They wire in cable, but require extensive testing and certification of the wiring system on a regularly scheduled basis.
 
iwire said:
Yes it could, do you think many homes are simply getting refreshed?
Click to expand...


No many get refreshed but there are a lot of homes that could use it. The reason that we normally end up doing a lot more is that a homeowner needs to be ready to make a large commitment before a house is rewired.

I think I could offer a pretty good deal just to repull existing wiring and add new devices and fixtures as needed. It would be cheaper than trying to replace existing cable.

Having said that I think they should allow MC cable for fixtures and additional receptacles if needed. I can deal with MC almost as easy as NM.
 
peter d said:
I noticed that true to their tradition, they did not pull a ground wire in the EMT. I have no problem using the EMT for the ground path, but when the pipe is mostly site unseen like that, I would be hesitant to do so.
Click to expand...
Gotta agree with you on that, but think about this... With their rigid inspection process and the fact that the EMT remains undisturbed, there's probably not much is going to happen to the connections.

BTW... All steel conduit fittings have been cheaper lately versus cast fittings. Just a weird FYI. I like the all-steel better anyhow.
 
growler said:
NHaving said that I think they should allow MC cable for fixtures and additional receptacles if needed. I can deal with MC almost as easy as NM.
Click to expand...

I agree. :smile:

It is my personal opinion that fact they do not allow MC cable proves it is more about labor issues then safety issues.
 
peter d said:
I noticed that true to their tradition, they did not pull a ground wire in the EMT. I have no problem using the EMT for the ground path, but when the pipe is mostly site unseen like that, I would be hesitant to do so.
Click to expand...

I think I would pull new grounds also but that shouldn't be a big problem unless the price of copper doubles again. :grin:
 
iwire said:
It is my personal opinion that fact they do not allow MC cable proves it is more about labor issues then safety issues.
Click to expand...


I fully agree. Most of the local rules anywhere have something to do with who is in control.

Why do you think one licensed electrician in Georgia can have as many people as he wishes working under his license. I would like to see that rule change but it doesn't do me any good because it's not going to. The builders want cheap labor and they have a lot more influence than small time electrical contractors. If anyone stops the use of arc fault breakers it not going to be the electrical contractors.

Those with the Gold Rule.
 
iwire said:
Lets say you have a single family home done in EMT and the HO wants to add a bunch of hi hats and switches.

How is EMT going to make that change easier?
Click to expand...

Some remodeling projects are harder with EMT & some are easier. In EMT it's a breeze to make all the bedroom outlets switched. One of my favorite projects in a large master BR is to have the two end table lamps switched with the ceiling fan light. Adding a circuit to an existing area can also be a breeze. On the other hand moving a switch box over 6" can be much more work in EMT.

Dave
 
mdshunk said:
Gotta agree with you on that, but think about this... With their rigid inspection process and the fact that the EMT remains undisturbed, there's probably not much is going to happen to the connections.
Click to expand...

True...initial installation defects like loose setscrews would be the primary concern. Loose locknuts would be easy to spot since all the boxes are open.
 
peter d said:
Exactly....there is a downside to EMT as well.
Click to expand...
I can't rightly remember having ever been called to move any box over 6" in an old-work situation.

An apartment building I'm working on right now was wired substantially in black enameled RMC. It almost seems a shame to demo all that stuff out. Much like that video I just posted, where they took out a fine Pushmatic panel and put a junk GE in its place. :roll:
 
"Oleary cow"??

"Oleary cow"??

mdshunk said:
That's the crux of the whole question. It does sorta smack of socialism to require something certain to possibly prevent another o'leary cow situation or London fire.

England has just as catestrophic of a fire in London as Chicago did, except they took a different approach. They wire in cable, but require extensive testing and certification of the wiring system on a regularly scheduled basis.
Click to expand...
Sorry to ask Marc, what is the "oleary cow"? All I know is Chicago had a great fire way back when?? I have been to Chicago once, A great city!! People were nice, it was Christmas. The lights,decorations were awesome! I assumed all the "cow" statues were something to do with Chicago being the big beef hub>:confused: :confused:
 
ItsHot said:
Sorry to ask Marc, what is the "oleary cow"? All I know is Chicago had a great fire way back when?? :confused:
Click to expand...

The cow was blamed for knocking over a lantern and starting the fire.

It was, TTBOMK, never blamed for chewing through Romex. :)
 
iwire said:
Should it be code or up to the HO if they want pipe or cable when building the home?
Click to expand...
How is this any different than the rules of questionable benefit that are in the NEC, AFCIs for example? The City of Chicago also has fire cause and origin data to support their "pipe" rule. Is the data valid, maybe not, but it is at least as valid as the fire cause data that was used to require AFCIs.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
How is this any different than the rules of questionable benefit that are in the NEC, AFCIs for example? The City of Chicago also has fire cause and origin data to support their "pipe" rule. Is the data valid, maybe not, but it is at least as valid as the fire cause data that was used to require AFCIs.
Click to expand...

Did anyone say I support the AFCI requirement with it's just as questionable benefit? :smile:

It is my personal opinion the money spent on EMT in wood frame homes would be more effectively spent on residential sprinklers.
 
Many older buildings were with black RMC. Guessing 1920's-1940's. Sometimes the pipes were large such as a 1" RMC for a resi oven. Em' cloth wires were fat. Or 1 1/4 RMC for phone cables. Some of the first conduit has been said to be orignaly installed as a gas feed to a gas light fixture in a home. Latter it was converted to electric and wires were pulled inside.

Looking at some old RMC Jobs you have some respect for the amount of labor that went into the work. Remembering there were no power tools. Some places I seen where all the pipes inside were threaded (no connectors). Just my guess a cary over from gas lighting days or labor was cheaper than fittings.

The bad things about those old RMC jobs were the boxes tended to be too small. You are lucky if you got a 4x4 box. Some plaster boxes were jem boxes, maybe 2 1/2" deep with maybe 3 pipes. Seen alot of RMC with little support. Guessing they did not have much available for hangers besides string, wire, and more pipe. Those old light fixture boxes did not have ears. Every light you would have use nipples the right length & reduced thread size off the center of the box.
 
It is not just Chicago but most of the suburbs also that is conduit.

There was a tine when a lot of conduit was run thru the different layers of floor around here. I'm guessing the 1940-50's. Makes it challenging when they move the walls and you need to rework those 90's comming out of the floor.

A few olders homes I believe they pulled the wire tight from the next opening as they put a device in leaving 0 slack. Another PITA was when they used those Despar switches and had 6 switches in a 1 1/2" deep box. One cool thing I remember ahome in Hillside that was done with 1/2" AL EMT.

********************************************

Originally Posted by iwire
Lets say you have a single family home done in EMT and the HO wants to add a bunch of hi hats and switches.

If you have a pipe up to 1 light you can come off that for the cans. Such as many family rooms are built here with 2 fireplace cans and switched outlets. Just run a switched leg thru the pipe to the fireplace can and wip off that to your new cans. Or a bedroom that has a cieling fan you can pull a different switch leg from the switch to the fan and wip off the fan. Take that 4x4 switch box with the 1 gang ring and cut it into a 2 gang.

You need another circuit for a treadmill, frig, etc. Many times it's no problem.

Moving a box can require cutting open the wall and may need to repull the wires. But it is doable. What do you do with NM when you need to move a box and you don't have enough length on the cable?
 
active1 said:
What do you do with NM when you need to move a box and you don't have enough length on the cable?
Click to expand...

Abandon it and pull another.:smile:

The ECs that spend a lot of time in old homes can get a cable almost anywhere without damage to the finish.

They also install hi hats in finished homes without damage.
 
Why don't we get comments on this issue that say "code rules that increase the job costs are good for the contractor and the electrican no matter what their real benefits are"? I get a lot of those types of comments when I voice oposition to the AFCI rules.
A little more half of the population of the State of Illinois is covered by residential "pipe" codes because many of the suburbs around Chicago have adopted codes that also require EMT.
Also I have been told that Omaha also has a dwelling unit "pipe" code, but have not verified that.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Why don't we get comments on this issue that say "code rules that increase the job costs are good for the contractor and the electrican no matter what their real benefits are"? I get a lot of those types of comments when I voice oposition to the AFCI rules.
Click to expand...
If those rules affected me in any way, I'd say exactly that. Until then, it's just a curiosity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top