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JJWalecka

JJWalecka

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I was told as a green apprentice that in the Chicago area EMT is used in houses for all branch circuits.

Is that true or was the gentleman pulling my leg?.again?

JJ
 
its true.


i think someone said on here they allow greenfield under certain conditions, but don't hold me to that.
 
480sparky said:
Neither do the rodents there. That's the reason I've heard.
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It has to do with fire. After all, the #1 danger of electricity is fire, not electrocution. NFPA ;)

Remember, wiring methods are as much about protecting the environment from the wiring as it is about protecting the wiring from the environment.
 
LarryFine said:
It has to do with fire. After all, the #1 danger of electricity is fire, not electrocution. NFPA ;)

Remember, wiring methods are as much about protecting the environment from the wiring as it is about protecting the wiring from the environment.
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And rodents like to chew on NM.....
 
I knew this from reading other posts in the past. My question is and always has been...How the heck do you do that??? Do you use 1000's of couplings? How do you get the pipe in the wall? Do you pipe from the bottom and top instead? Seems crazy. It would be worse than plumbing pipes. Maybe you could pipe the house before the sheathing goes on and use a 30 foot bit to drill through the entire wall....Then just slide er in.....and cut where needed.
 
Its mostly (if not exclusively) EMT or RMC in Chicago and its immediate suburbs - including single family residences. Many have challenged this requirement with no success. The primary reason seems to be the impression that any other electrical system is inferior and thus a higher fire or safety risk. I have even had a few people tell me that the Great Chicago fire of was started by an electrical problem..:roll: Most now believe that it was started when a lantern was kicked over in a wood shed. Misinformation really takes on a life of its own.

At electrical trade shows - especially in IL, I have had Chicago-Land electricians tell me that the requirement of EMT or RMC in residences has nothing to do with fire or safety. Rather it is a standing 'rule' buy the strong electrical unions to only install the more labor-intensive pipe and tube systems (thus guaranteeing more work for their members). I was also told that the Unions have "influenced" the AHJ's and local codes to only allow tube or pipe installs - resi and commercial - even though the NEC allows such wiring methods. The AHJ's and union members absolutely refuse to consider AC/MC or NM as an acceptable (and compliant) alternative. The unwritten and unspoken reasons are that it is much quicker to install and thus takes less labor to do it. This was verified by a local Chicago union electrician who validated this to me without prompting..

As a matter of fact, I have personally heard a Chicago-Land inspector mock AC/MC cable as a major safety/fire hazard in ANY use. When he was told that 99% of the country is using it already, he just rolled his eyes and said "well, thats fine, but it will NEVER happen anywhere in Chicago!"..That just grinds my gears...:rolleyes:

"Stubborn" describes this situation.
 
The City of Chicago cites their fire cause statistics to support the "pipe" code. Their fires of electrical origin are about 25% of the national average. I am sure that there are any number of reasons for this, including more qualified fire investigators, but I would expect that the "pipe" code plays some part in it.
NM is a safe wiring method, but EMT is safer.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The City of Chicago cites their fire cause statistics to support the "pipe" code. Their fires of electrical origin are about 25% of the national average. I am sure that there are any number of reasons for this, including more qualified fire investigators, but I would expect that the "pipe" code plays some part in it.
NM is a safe wiring method, but EMT is safer.
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I wonder if the new 2008 code requirements for AFCI/GFCI protection will lead Chicago to eventually abandon EMT in dwellings.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The City of Chicago cites their fire cause statistics to support the "pipe" code. Their fires of electrical origin are about 25% of the national average. I am sure that there are any number of reasons for this, including more qualified fire investigators, but I would expect that the "pipe" code plays some part in it.
NM is a safe wiring method, but EMT is safer.
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What about MC/AC? Could that be considered safer than NM? I guess I am curious to know if pipe really is even partially responsible for the lower than national average rate? How do Chicago's fire statistics compare to other big city areas like NYC, LA, or Miami? Are there other factors besides electrical that could be affecting that number?

I also find it difficult to believe that other areas in the country don't have equally or more qualified fire inspectors on staff. I know NYC has some of the most respected fire investigators in the entire country.

The NFPA and the NEC go through great lengths to put rules and regulations in place to reduce or eliminate loss of life. As recent evidence of that, tamperproof receptacles have been required in the 2008 NEC as well as AFCI's. I have read that the total injury rate from incidents that could be prevented from both of those improvements was probably 60,000 people/year. While one injury is too many, how did this qualify as a major problem compared to NM or AC/MC?

There are 305+ Million people living in the USA, and electrical fires are more likely to be caused by many more things than the wiring method. But that is only part of the story.

From ESFi: "According to statistics from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), there are over 30,000 home fires annually associated with electrical distribution systems (wiring), resulting in over 200 deaths, nearly 1,000 injuries and over $600 million in property damage. These fires are caused by faulty electrical distribution systems, While these numbers are lower than that from previous studies, continued awareness of electrical hazards, combined with product improvements are necessary to continue this trend."

If NM and AC/MC cable were even the slightest bit unsafe or dangerous, the NEC would have outlawed it years ago and we would ALL be using pipe. I believe that workmanship and adherence to existing codes make all the difference between a safe and unsafe electrical installation.

Based on the direct comments I have heard from folks working in and around the Chicago-Land area, I tend to believe that the AHJ's and Unions in Chicago are manipulating the statistics to serve a different agenda...
 
If people use the argument that NM is safe but EMT is safer then I guess we should all be driving around M1-Abraham TANKS because they are much safer in an accident than an SUV.

There's always going to be something safer. Why doesn't Chicago wire home explosion proof.....THAT'S SAFER.... Heck then encapsulate all branch explosion proof circuits in concrete encasements to protect from physical damage. Thats just plain silly.

I am not going to get into Unions because I know the rules here and have been around here as long as most, <the rest of this sentence has been deleted>.
 
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don_resqcapt19 said:
The City of Chicago cites their fire cause statistics to support the "pipe" code. Their fires of electrical origin are about 25% of the national average.
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If they use pipe and their fires make up 25% of the nations average then maybe it's the emt that is causing the fires. :D
 
LJSMITH1 said:
What about MC/AC? Could that be considered safer than NM? I guess I am curious to know if pipe really is even partially responsible for the lower than national average rate? How do Chicago's fire statistics compare to other big city areas like NYC, LA, or Miami? Are there other factors besides electrical that could be affecting that number?
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My post said it is likely that there are other factors here, but that EMT most likely plays a role.

LJSMITH1 said:
I also find it difficult to believe that other areas in the country don't have equally or more qualified fire inspectors on staff. I know NYC has some of the most respected fire investigators in the entire country.
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I just suggested that the fire investigations may be one part of this.

LJSMITH1 said:
The NFPA and the NEC go through great lengths to put rules and regulations in place to reduce or eliminate loss of life. As recent evidence of that, tamperproof receptacles have been required in the 2008 NEC as well as AFCI's. I have read that the total injury rate from incidents that could be prevented from both of those improvements was probably 60,000 people/year. While one injury is too many, how did this qualify as a major problem compared to NM or AC/MC? ....
If NM and AC/MC cable were even the slightest bit unsafe or dangerous, the NEC would have outlawed it years ago and we would ALL be using pipe. I believe that workmanship and adherence to existing codes make all the difference between a safe and unsafe electrical installation.
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As far as the rule in the NEC you have to remember that the NEC is a minimum standard, and there are many things that can be made safer if you install to a standard higher than that minimum.
 
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