Chinese Codes?

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chrisplusian said:
Does anyone know what the Chinese equivalent of the NEC is? I have spent a bit of time searching for an answer and cannot.
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Based on the investigations of Chinese made products by forum members, I'm guessing the answer is "Codes? Codes?! We don' need no steekin' codes!"
 
gadfly56 said:
Based on the investigations of Chinese made products by forum members...
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It is a common fallacy that the building codes, like the NEC, apply to products being manufactured.

Is the OP about product or installation?
 
jim dungar said:
It is a common fallacy that the building codes, like the NEC, apply to products being manufactured.

Is the OP about product or installation?
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My reply was based on the assumption that what is true in one case is likely true in the other. By no means certain, of course.
 
As I recall, China has its own standards with elements from IEC, IEEE and other organizations. Having seen some installations there, it's difficult to determine to which standard(s) the installations were made.
 
Beaches EE said:
As I recall, China has its own standards with elements from IEC, IEEE and other organizations. Having seen some installations there, it's difficult to determine to which standard(s) the installations were made.
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If an installation doesn't comply with any of the elements of the various standards, I don't see how it will comply with any Frankencode, however constructed.
 
The Question is in relation to electrical installations. There are plenty of "standards" out which are globally recognized like ISO. I have found some information which makes it seem like China uses smaller sections of codes rather than one compiled code like we do in NFPA 70. They have what seems to be a GB equivalent (GB 50617-2010, GB 50170-2018, GB 50254-2014, GB 50303-2015, etc). I know a few electrical integrators for OEM companies get sent to other countries to install equipment. In those cases they would have had the relevant code violations pointed out. I was hoping to find someone on here who ma have had such an encounter that can tell me the main ones to focus on. There seem to be a large magnitude of Codes over there, but was hoping to find what are the legally enforceable codes which apply, and the related standards which I need to focus on if planning to do business there. If someone asked me the same for the US and they were working in the industrial food and beverage industry I would point them to NFPA 70, NFPA 79, and NFPA 70E as long as there are not classified locations in their install. If they were doing hazardous installs I would point them to NFPA 499 or NFPA 497. Hoping to find someone who has been there done that, but I know its a long shot.
 
After watching a group of Chinese electricians bend 2" rigid conduit with a large gas torch on one of my projects over I realized electrical codes can be flexible. That was back in the 90's so hopefully things have improved.
 
I would assume there is no single 'code' in China, just like there is not just one in the US.
NFPA79 is for industrial equipment and, to my knowledge, is 100% voluntary across the US. Compliance is specification driven.
NFPA70 is for installation, but it is only legally applicable on a state by state basis. some state have given authority for its application to municipalities.
NFP79E is about safely interfacing with energized electrical equipment in workplaces. It is not really applicable to equipment installation.
 
jim dungar said:
I would assume there is no single 'code' in China, just like there is not just one in the US.
NFPA79 is for industrial equipment and, to my knowledge, is 100% voluntary across the US. Compliance is specification driven.
NFPA70 is for installation, but it is only legally applicable on a state by state basis. some state have given authority for its application to municipalities.
NFP79E is about safely interfacing with energized electrical equipment in workplaces. It is not really applicable to equipment installation.
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I agree, however in the case of NFPA 70 it is the required minimum federally, so although a state, or local municipality may chose to implement additional standards or regulations you would be hard pressed to find one who gives you less strict requirements. NFPA 79 is meant to cover equipment which acceptations have been applied since additional safe guards are in place and at times it is ok to see electrical equipment fail. You will not see a UL listing on a piece of OEM equipment which has three control panels, and 40,000 pounds of stainless machinery attached, but you will see most of it adhere to NFPA 79, and when it doesn't someone will want to know how it is compliant. Most OEM's design to NFPA 79 standards since it was specifically tailored to situations outside the scope of a traditional install (much like a motor circuit has special allowances since by design it may incorperate overloads, VFD's, Soft starts, as well as circuit breakers). Additionally, NFPA 70E addresses safety beyond the scope of install. They are all meant to be different limbs of a single body. So although none of the codes are the one shot go to, in the situation I described, barring FDA requirements of 21 CFR 11, and the very broad terminology used by OSHA these would be the governing standards used in 99% of US applications. China seems to break theirs down into sections... one for lighting, one for rotating machines, one for cabling, etc. I was hoping that maybe there is a short list, or a compiled version that would lead me to the ones that govern "most" installs.
 
Installation codes would only apply to field work you will be doing there. Is that your case? Because if what you are interested in is exporting equipment to China, then they have a requirement for CCC (China Compulsory Certification) on all electrical devices. It is essentially their "revenge" for UL listing requirements for their crap sent over here. There are agencies here in North America that can get the certification for you, for a fee of course.
 
chrisplusian said:
I agree, however in the case of NFPA 70 it is the required minimum federally...
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Each state is allowed to chose which edition of the NEC they want implemented in their jurisdictions. Some states do not even accept it all. My home state completely ignored the 2014 edition, instead jumping from 2011 all the way to 2017.

OEMs are certainly allowed nad may even be encouraged to design and build their equipment to NFPA79. Overall most of the small panel shops, that I have experience with, don't even own a copy. UL508A is definitely more common than NFPA79.

NFPA70E contains almost no useful information for general design and installation of systems. It simply provides a list of suggestions that should be followed in order to create Electrically Safe Work Practices based on what has already been installed. You are correct, it is often cited by OSHA and most companies follow it, but it is not a requirement. It does not contain any restrictions on electrical installations except for labels to be installed, it just says what to do based on those hazards which it helps identify. It leaves the risk analysis and acceptable hazard level choices up to the employer. For example, there is nothing in NFPA70E against having a system with more than 40 cal/cm^2 incident energy, even though it would be difficult to maintain and troubleshoot.

All of the above standards are optional, and therefore need to be specifically included in project specifications.

Now was your original post about, which standards might be employed somewhere in China, or was it for those required for a specific project or location?
 
I spent a month in china once back in the 90s. Among other quirks they used black tape with no adhesive and tied wires together instead of using wire nuts. They also used mostly underfloor trenchs to route wires. Just wires with sand around them. No conduit even where the wires came out of the floor into boxes.

Not much different than what I saw in mexico when I was there about the same time except their black tape had adhesive.
 
petersonra said:
I spent a month in china once back in the 90s. Among other quirks they used black tape with no adhesive and tied wires together instead of using wire nuts. They also used mostly underfloor trenchs to route wires. Just wires with sand around them. No conduit even where the wires came out of the floor into boxes.

Not much different than what I saw in mexico when I was there about the same time except their black tape had adhesive.
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Isn't that called "ribbon"? :unsure:
 
jim dungar said:
Each state is allowed to chose which edition of the NEC they want implemented in their jurisdictions. Some states do not even accept it all. My home state completely ignored the 2014 edition, instead jumping from 2011 all the way to 2017.

OEMs are certainly allowed nad may even be encouraged to design and build their equipment to NFPA79. Overall most of the small panel shops, that I have experience with, don't even own a copy. UL508A is definitely more common than NFPA79.

NFPA70E contains almost no useful information for general design and installation of systems. It simply provides a list of suggestions that should be followed in order to create Electrically Safe Work Practices based on what has already been installed. You are correct, it is often cited by OSHA and most companies follow it, but it is not a requirement. It does not contain any restrictions on electrical installations except for labels to be installed, it just says what to do based on those hazards which it helps identify. It leaves the risk analysis and acceptable hazard level choices up to the employer. For example, there is nothing in NFPA70E against having a system with more than 40 cal/cm^2 incident energy, even though it would be difficult to maintain and troubleshoot.

All of the above standards are optional, and therefore need to be specifically included in project specifications.

Now was your original post about, which standards might be employed somewhere in China, or was it for those required for a specific project or location?
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I agree with what you are saying, and in my everyday work I use UL508A panel shops. Panel shops are for a different scope than what NFPA 79 is. And my point on the NFPA 70 being minimum requirement here, is that some edition of it will be the minimum required. I was an electrician for almost 20 years before getting a degree in Electrical Engineering. I have seen several AHJ require more than the minimum, but never knowingly less. And in my current line of work designing automation systems there is a very popular acceptance for NFPA 79, even when coming from across sea. Working this industry for the last four years has opened my eyes to alot I never saw as an electrician or as a facilities guy. My current topic of discussion comes because may become engaged in a foreign contract. I am one of the persons responsible for reviewing scope of work legal documents for electrical installations and have to point to a minimum requirement for the contractors hired to do the installation over there. This is just my initial pass at looking into this and it may end up being more headache than its worth, but it is for a longstanding valued customer, so even if it is a break even case it is worth me looking into. The reason I ask here (no offense to anyone) is that working in the trenches with Electricians for most of my career my bet dollar is on them, or an OEM tech. for having come across this more likely than one of my current cohort. Also, my grandfather who passed a few years ago was a lifelong Master Electrician and an inspector for over 25 years when he set his tools down. He came on here from time to time and gave information freely. When I run into any odd ball circumstances I look to these kind of forums to point me in the direction which typically helps me find an answer.
 
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chrisplusian said:
..Also, my grandfather who passed a few years ago was a lifelong Master Electrician and an inspector for over 25 years when he set his tools down. He came on here from time to time and gave information freely.
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Do you remember the name your grandfather used on this forum?
 
chrisplusian said:
I am one of the persons responsible for reviewing scope of work legal documents for electrical installations and have to point to a minimum requirement for the contractors hired to do the installation over there
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Good luck.

I wanted to make the point that what we think of as 'standard', may not be in other industries or other parts of the US much less in the rest of the world.

You are somewhat lucky to work in an industry that uses NFPA79, I cannot tell you how many people I have met in my career that think an E-stop is just a button with a mushroom head. It has really only been the past 15-20 years that things are beginning to change. From the few foreign installations I have seen, the manufacturers and customer specs have more design influence than local codes do.
 
jim dungar said:
I would assume there is no single 'code' in China, just like there is not just one in the US.
NFPA79 is for industrial equipment and, to my knowledge, is 100% voluntary across the US. Compliance is specification driven.
NFPA70 is for installation, but it is only legally applicable on a state by state basis. some state have given authority for its application to municipalities.
NFP79E is about safely interfacing with energized electrical equipment in workplaces. It is not really applicable to equipment installation.
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With its strong central government and managed economy, I very much doubt that China would allow provinces or cities to set up their own electrical installation codes. But I cannot say that for sure.
As to enforcement and the possibility of inspectors looking the other way, there may well be regional differences.
 
GoldDigger said:
With its strong central government and managed economy, I very much doubt that China would allow provinces or cities to set up their own electrical installation codes. But I cannot say that for sure.
As to enforcement and the possibility of inspectors looking the other way, there may well be regional differences.
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Over the years my observation about Chinese machine purchases is that they will buy from anyone. They don't really care what standard it is built to.

As best I can tell chinese-built machines aren't built to any particular standard at all. Having said that many Chinese built machines are pretty decently done, even if they do not have the fancy safety crap on it. They well slap a safety relay and some guards on a machine if you pay them to though. A lot like many American machine makers have done.
 
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