Chinese Drywall or well water

[Peter Furrow]

The attached photo shows black soot on the grounding conductors in an electrical panel. Initially i thought this may have been caused by a lightning event. However, I just been informed that this may be due to Chinese drywall or sulfur in the well water.
The homeowner just purchased this home and the home insurance company obligated him to replace the Challenger panel. When we removed the panel cover to commence work , we discovered the black soot on all the exposed portions of the copper wire.
The homeowner told me the home inspection report just indicated corrosion. But, corrosion on copper wire is usually green.
I can’t tell you how many electrical panels and replaced in the past 12 years since I’ve been in business and prior to starting my business.
I’ve never seen this before.
Any thoughts?


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[Dennis Alwon]

I am 99% sure that is from Chinese sheetrock outgasing.

 

[mopowr steve]

It can be from sulfur in well water, we see it often in rural homes.

 

[gadfly56]

I am 99% sure that is from Chinese sheetrock outgasing.

I agree. The only solution is to rip it ALL out. And rewire. I hope this is covered by their insurance.

 

[jim dungar]

I am 99% sure that is from Chinese sheetrock outgasing.

With it being a Challenger panel, the home is probably more than 10 years old.
Unless there has been substantial drywall work, I would go in the well and ground water direction.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

With it being a Challenger panel, the home is probably more than 10 years old.
Unless there has been substantial drywall work, I would go in the well and ground water direction.

Challenger panels were gone before 2000, I think. The Chinese drywall was 2001-2009. It could have easily have been a remodel job in the area of the main panel. Idk

I don't see how it is well related? The mis-coloring is only on the wires on the outside of the bundles. I have seen the off gassing before and it looks just like that.

 

[mikeames]

Hydrogen Sulfide - Good read about it here.

Wallboard Woes | Science & Technology | Chemical & Engineering News

A member supported weekly magazine of the American Chemical Society, Chemical And Engineering News covers all the news of the chemical world including science and technology, government and policy, and business

pubsapp.acs.org

And here

The Effects of Hydrogen Sulfide Gas on Electrical Components

Uptime Magazine Oct/Nov 2017 article by Samuel Starnes infrared thermography is a great technology to incorporate into any predictive maintenance program.

reliabilityweb.com

 

[jim dungar]

Know one really

I don't see how it is well related? The mis-coloring is only on the wires on the outside of the bundles. I have seen the off gassing before and it looks just like that.

It is sometimes simply 'hard' ground water or maybe the sewage ejector in the room with the panel.
Sulfur off gassing is off gassing., it doesn't really matter the source does it?
The only reason to look for a source, would be to prevent it from happening again.

 

[mikeames]

Sulfur off gassing is off gassing., it doesn't really matter the source does it?
The only reason to look for a source, would be to prevent it from happening again.

Correct!

 

[Peter Furrow]

I am 99% sure that is from Chinese sheetrock outgasing.

This house was built in 1998.
What I’ve read is that Chinese drywall was a problem between 2003 and 2007.
That would rule out Chinese drywall being the problem. Maybe?
The homeowner is definitely concerned about it. The home is located in Florida and well water out here has that stink egg smell( Sulfur).

This panel is surface mounted in the garage right on the CVS block. The meter can is back to back. The meter can lugs also blackened.
The grounding electrode conductor #4bare is also blackened.
I don’t know how this chemical reaction occurs but it is possible that the sulfur Gas worked its way from the grounding electrode outside into the meter can and into the electrical panel back to back onto the garage wall?

I mentioned it to Mike Holt and he might bring it up on this Tuesday live stream. I hope he talks about it because it’s a subject worth mentioning. I’ll try to post pictures of the meter can and grounding electrode as well.


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[zbang]

This house was built in 1998.
What I’ve read is that Chinese drywall was a problem between 2003 and 2007.
That would rule out Chinese drywall being the problem. Maybe?

Probably, but the HO could have the drywall tested.

The home is located in Florida and well water out here has that stink egg smell( Sulfur).

There's the likely culprit.

 

[Peter Furrow]

I agree. I definitely think the home inspector needs to come back And do a test on the drywall to confirm if it is Drywall problem.
This homeowner just purchased this house and the initial home inspection report did not catch any of this. The initial home inspection report said corrosion on the conductors. But that’s definitely not corrosion. Corrosion usually would be green on copper conductors. All the exposed copper in this panel is blackened.


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[hillbilly1]

The home is located in Florida and well water out here has that stink egg smell( Sulfur).

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I made the mistake of using the water at a rv park in St. Augustine FL! My class A smelled of sulphur for weeks afterward!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Well, I guess the water may be the culprit. I wouldn't have thought sulfur in the water would cause this issue as it would appear it would need to be in the air constantly.

 

[roger]

I agree. I definitely think the home inspector needs to come back And do a test on the drywall to confirm if it is Drywall problem.

Not the Home Inspectors problem. Home Inspectors are observers, he observed and noted a problem, it now belongs to the seller or buyer to take it further up the road. If the buyer was in a hurry they may wish they would have paused a little.

As an aside, I have seen the same problem in panels from conduit pool feeds going to a high chlorine area.

Roger.

 

[RumRunner]

Well, I guess the water may be the culprit. I wouldn't have thought sulfur in the water would cause this issue as it would appear it would need to be in the air constantly.

Dry walls are fire rated. . .and they are not made alike.

The higher rated ones have higher moisture content and thicker. The fire rating is usually stamped on the opposite side of the finish face. You will see Type X stamp for example.

Moisture is added to comply with ASTM Standard . A 60- minute fire rating is thicker than a 30-minute rating and has more water content to retard spread of fire.
Gypsum board for walls have different fire rating than for the ones for ceiling application.
That's the reason we see steam (white smoke) from early stages of fire in a structure. As soon as the smoke turns black it means drywall moisture had already evaporated (gassed-out).

It is debatable and valid to say :"they dry out eventually" so what happens to the moisture-dependent fire rating?

The best retort to answer this-- is a rhetorical question:

Why do birds fly and fish swim?

A faulty analogy or enigma perhaps. . .but there you go.
Moisture stays for a while longer in a gypsum board.

During this drying-out (gassing) stage is where this sulfide- laden (or whatever chemical there is ), that Chinese well water is seeping to every crack and crevices in the structure-- and make it's way to copper wiring.

From a research lab regarding drywall moisture content:

*******A range of 5 to 12 percent is considered optimal. A reading of up to 17 percent is generally considered moderate moisture and acceptable. *******

 

[hillbilly1]

See a lot of corrosion in chicken houses, lots of ammonia from the bird droppings. Don’t know why they put the panels inside the houses, when I change one, I flip it to the outside and change to 3r.

 

[flashlight]

mikeames, nice illustrations.

Has there been an issue with people breathing these off-gassed chemicals ?

 

[zbang]

I wouldn't have thought sulfur in the water would cause this issue as it would appear it would need to be in the air constantly.

If you can smell it.... it's in the air. Every time someone runs the sink, takes a shower, waters the grass, etc,

 

[curt swartz]

I'm curious why the insurance company wanted the panel changed if the "black soot" issue what not known until you were replacing the panel?

No real issues with Challenger other than the old slim Type A breakers frequently had failures at the buss connection. When Westinghouse acquired Challenger in the late 80's they discontinued the slim Type A breakers and replaced them with Bryant BR series twin breakers.

Westinghouse kept both the Bryant and Challenger brands even though the equipment was exactly the same except for name and catalog numbers. Similar to Siemens keeping 2 brands of equipment with Siemens and Murray brands. After Eaton acquired the division from Westinghouse in the mid 90's they eliminated the Challenger and Westinghouse/Bryant naming and started marking the line as Eaton BR series.

The panel in the picture is actually an Eaton panel but was manufactured before the Challenger name was eliminated.