Christmas Lighting

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

msondreson

Member
Location
Bellevue Washington
Yes,its that time of the year again and I am asked by the franchise owners if they can use the outlet on the street light poles for there Christmas lights. Every year I tell them NO.
There persistence continues but now they want more info as to why I will not allow this.
The system is old say about 1975 NEC, it was built for maintenance by a professional only.
all I need is more direction to NEC for temporary lighting. GFI, extension cord connections, Disconnects, I found most info but haven't found all.
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

Nothing keeps them from using a non gfci outlet.Not safe knowing what we know today but its legal to use old systems.Now if it's an amperage problem then tell them.
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

this system is in the city right of way and considered Commercial lighting, by code I believe it is not required to have GFI protection, but when you add Christmas lighting that is accessible by the general public....Does this not bother you
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

The rules that modify the 2002 NEC for temporary installations are found in Art 527. Pay close attention to 527.2(A).

With regard to Jim's statement about GFCI protection, I believe 527.6 would require it. He's right where residential installations are concerned, but worker safety requirements can be enforced retroactively. This is especially true if you believe, "Not safe knowing what we know today..."
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

Originally posted by msondreson:
Sorry Bob I am still in the 1999 NEC, I will pick up 2002 tomorrow.
Click to expand...
In that case it's Art 305 - it says pretty much the same thing about GFCI in 305-6.

BTW it will be Art 590 in the 2005 NEC - they keep moving it around; I guess 'cause its "temporary." :D
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

Originally posted by rbalex:
With regard to Jim's statement about GFCI protection, I believe 527.6 would require it.
Click to expand...
I do not see that 527.6 applies to holiday decorations. I am all for GFCIs but I do not think we can say they are required for this application.
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

Originally posted by msondreson:
The system is old say about 1975 NEC, it was built for maintenance by a professional only.
Click to expand...
What leads you to believe the outlets where not original intended for holiday decorations?

Many of the site poles we install in retail parking lots are equipped with receptacles for this.
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

Originally posted by iwire:
I do not see that 527.6 applies to holiday decorations. I am all for GFCIs but I do not think we can say they are required for this application.
Click to expand...
Bob,

I'm not sure why you would think holiday lighting isn't covered, since the scope of the Article applies to all temporary installations and it's specifically listed in 527.3(B). I don't see an exemption in 527.6 that applies to the installation under discussion. The only possible exemption I see would be an installation totally under a POCOs control.

My original comment was responding to Jim's reply;i.e., if an inspector, especially from a state or federal OSHA operation, determined the installation was unsafe they could indeed require GFCI no matter how old the system was.

The sad thing is that it is enforceable "before the fact" only if an some employer / employee relationship to the installation can be established. The "public" has no such protection unless there is an "imminent danger" statute that applies. If the installation is totally under a POCO's control, then whatever their own rules and applicable PUC rules apply.

My impression from the original question was a private employer group was initiating the installation and therefore OSHA enforcement applies. Lack of OSHA enforcement "before the fact" comes from lack of resources, not lack of authority. If they have to enforce "after the fact" they can be particularly nasty; especially if an injury could have been prevented by something as simple as a GFCI.
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

IWire
Yes the intent of the outlets are for decorative lighting but only for pole mounted lights hung and maintained by the City. There intent is to decorate multiple trees using an extension cord.
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

Originally posted by rbalex:
With regard to Jim's statement about GFCI protection, I believe 527.6 would require it. He's right where residential installations are concerned....
Click to expand...
Perhaps I misunderstand, but are you saying that GFCI protection would not be required if it were a dwelling unit? Are you referencing the 1975 or the 2002 for this statement?
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

In the 2002 NEC, 527.6 says it applies only to temp. installations used by personell during construction, remodeling, mainteannce, repair of buildings, structures, or similar stuff. So it wouldn't apply.

Like Ryan said, you need to decide if you are enforcing the 1975 NEC, since that is when the outlets were installed, or the 2002, since that is in effect when the outlets are used (I would think only the 1975 would apply. I'm not sure the NEC can tell a user what they can or can not plug in).

2 other items:

If you were quoting the 2002 NEC, weatherproof while in use covers would be required.

If you really don't want to allow the lights, just ask the store owners who pays the utility bill for the receptacle.

Steve
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

527.2(B)Approval. _______________acceptable only if approved based on the conditions of use

This may be the factor for GFCI requirements but what determines condition of use?
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

Who owns the light poles?
By the way the 2005 NEC would require these receptacles to be GFCI, 2002 and earlier would not.
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

I feel like the confusion is in the definition of (in use by personell).lighting does not have to be gfi protected.In use, to me is if I am plugged into this outlet and using a drill or something else I am physically attached to_One could also argue that the lighting could be considered in use because it illuminates the area so you can see.Am I way off base here?
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

Originally posted by ryan_618:
Originally posted by rbalex:
With regard to Jim's statement about GFCI protection, I believe 527.6 would require it. He's right where residential installations are concerned....
Click to expand...
Perhaps I misunderstand, but are you saying that GFCI protection would not be required if it were a dwelling unit? Are you referencing the 1975 or the 2002 for this statement?
Click to expand...
I'm saying retroactivity of the NEC is a local issue for residential installations but not for occupational safety.

If the original residential installation did not require GFCI, its unlikely that it could be enforced retroactively and would depend on local "imminent danger" statutes. A local jurisdiction probably could not require a unaltered residential receptacle upgrade to GFCI where it would be required by the current NEC, although they may be able to prohibit using one that wasn't. It would depend on local codes.

Worker safety regulations can be and often are enforced retroactively. FedOSHA can enforce the latest version of the NEC (and 70E) anytime they choose. The lack of GFCI protection could not be used for ex post facto criminal sanctions unless it was required at he time of original installation, but it can require employers to upgrade receptacles or otherwise provide GFCI protection - even for installations that were originally "legal." They may penalize employers under civil sanctions for the failure to upgrade and criminal sanctions if someone is injured. It is the employer's responsibility to be "up to date" on worker safety requirements. Most states with independent OHSAs follow the Federal guidelines. I don't know of any that don't.
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

If someone were to get electrocuted as a result of christmas lights being plugged into a non gfi protected outlet,I'd bet they would'nt be hounding you at all.If you feel it is dangerous,stand your ground and tell them no.If no one will defend your point of view,and you are of authority defend yourself.
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

Originally posted by steve66:
In the 2002 NEC, 527.6 says it applies only to temp. installations used by personell during construction, remodeling, mainteannce, repair of buildings, structures, or similar stuff. So it wouldn't apply.
...
Steve
Click to expand...
I think it would depend on how "similar stuff" was interpreted. Most occupational safety enforcers can be fairly liberal.

The bottom line is this, do you believe it is safe to operate the installation as msondreson has described it without GFCI protection or not?

I'm not an attorney, but there are also theories of tort liability that say if someone is injured and avoiding that injury could have been easily prevented by applying well known means and methods you're in deep sh--.
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

Originally posted by rbalex:
I'm not sure why you would think holiday lighting isn't covered, since the scope of the Article applies to all temporary installations and it's specifically listed in 527.3(B).
Click to expand...
Again let me point out I think a GFCI would be a great idea for this installation. :)

Why do I think holiday lighting is excluded from 527.6?

Because 527.6 says so.

527.6 Ground-Fault Protection for Personnel.

Ground-fault protection for personnel for all temporary wiring installations shall be provided to comply with 527.6(A) and (B). This section shall apply only to temporary wiring installations used to supply temporary power to equipment used by personnel during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or similar activities.
Click to expand...
I do not see how any enforcement agency could stretch this section enough to cover receptacles feeding holiday lights. Holiday lighting is not similar to the other listed activities.

However that is 2002 NEC for all I know 2005 may be different. :)

Bob

[ October 07, 2004, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Christmas Lighting

Hello Bob, "Temporary Wiring" is 590 in the 2005, and 590.6 is identical to 527.6.

Along with the bold parts of Bob's quote, we need to look at when GFCI protection is required for "Temporary Wiring" specifically.

527.6 Ground-Fault Protection for Personnel.

Ground-fault protection for personnel for all temporary wiring installations shall be provided to comply with 527.6(A) and (B). This section shall apply only to temporary wiring installations used to supply temporary power to equipment used by personnel during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or similar activities.
Click to expand...
The receptacles on these poles when used for holiday lightng, would not meet any of those specific items, and would not have any bearing these receptacles requiring GFCI protection.

Roger

[ October 07, 2004, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top