Circuit breaker panels position of handles and enclosures required.

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muskiedog

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I am having an issue that I would like clarification from the vast knowledge of the forum.

During my routine facility inspections I had come across breaker panesl that have the the on in the up and some in the down position. From my understanding 240.81 would require them to be in the up position when on.

The licensed electrician is saying this does not violate code.

Also at one time this had covers over the breakers but they have been removed and discarded. The electrician is stating that covers are not required. They are located in cabins used by patrons and youths. Wouldn't 240.30 require an enclosure for the breaker panels.
 
240.33 and 240.81 indicate up is the on position. This reduces the number of pole space available for use (as noted in the NEC handbook).
 
breakers

breakers

I would agree on your call on 240.81. If the breaker is vertically operated, "on" should be "up".
I'm not sure I fully understand the second part. IMHO, if "removing the covers" left exposed live parts, a definite violation. If it only left the breaker fronts (handles) exposed, I see no problem. That being said, if the enclosure came with a door and was UL listed, one could say its a violation to rtemove the door as yoiu are altering UL listed equipment.
 
augie47 said:
I would agree on your call on 240.81. If the breaker is vertically operated, "on" should be "up".
I'm not sure I fully understand the second part. IMHO, if "removing the covers" left exposed live parts, a definite violation. If it only left the breaker fronts (handles) exposed, I see no problem. That being said, if the enclosure came with a door and was UL listed, one could say its a violation to rtemove the door as yoiu are altering UL listed equipment.
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Sounds to me like he's saying that the hinged portion of the cover has been removed which would be OK. Or maybe I'm reading too much into this thread.
 
trevor...I read what you read, and I agree that it's o.k., but that's us.
I was simply stating that if one wished to be "hard-nosed", if it came with a hinged cover as a listed panel, removing the hinged cover would be altering.
To me, no problem, to some I've met, a red tag issue.
 
Hinged cover removed.

Hinged cover removed.

Yes it was just the cover removed. so the breakers are assessable all the time. Wouldn't you want this to be able to lock to keep unauthorized patrons from the breaker panel, campers and kids?
 
I would say it was tested with the door so it is needed or a signed paper from mfg saying door may be removed to make it comply fully with nec.Do i see hazard no.The breaker issue is a major and needs fixed.It could cause a serious problem if it needs turned off fast.
 
He might be talking about the dead front.

Wasn't there a panel that had two rows of breakers? I'm thinking it was Square D and for the top row down was on.

Installed per it's listing and lable.
 
muskiedog said:
Yes it was just the cover removed. so the breakers are assessable all the time. Wouldn't you want this to be able to lock to keep unauthorized patrons from the breaker panel, campers and kids?
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Is it an old Federal Pacific Panel? they had the lower level breakers in the down position for on. Sokme even had no hinged cover.
If this is it then its an old grandfathered intallation
FWIW breakers are allowed to be used as switches.
Who cares of breaker handle are easy to access? as long as no live parts are exposed.
 
77401,

It's up to us to care, who else is going to! Consider it parent night at the

camp,people are walking around the lit up camp and one of the kids shuts off

all the breakers. Could someone trip in the darkness and get hurt?

A hinged cover with a key lock would of prevented the action.
 
Frank: The old "lack of electricity is an NEC safety issue" routine? What if they forget to pay the electric bill? :D

Jim Walker: Siemens panels have cheap plastic hinges that sometimes break before finals. Do you truly consider it a 110.3(B) violation to remove the door, if the panel is still dead-front after the change? What is the safety concern?
 
benaround said:
77401,

It's up to us to care, who else is going to! Consider it parent night at the

camp,people are walking around the lit up camp and one of the kids shuts off

all the breakers. Could someone trip in the darkness and get hurt?

A hinged cover with a key lock would of prevented the action.
Click to expand...
Oh I care! I really do!As a parent I care enough to teach my kids not to mess with the breakers. And I care enough to watch what the other unruly kids with out good parents are doing.
But I think you have a better chance of some kid spilling there drink & that over weight, lazy mother that is not watching her kid slips on the spill than your scenario. If you really are so concerned for safety then you betther not leave your house or drive over the speed limit or bust a yellow light.
Benaround have you ever tried skydiving? You should. The Jumpmasters woud love you!

WHAT IF?
 
georgestolz said:
Frank: The old "lack of electricity is an NEC safety issue" routine? What if they forget to pay the electric bill? :D

Jim Walker: Siemens panels have cheap plastic hinges that sometimes break before finals. Do you truly consider it a 110.3(B) violation to remove the door, if the panel is still dead-front after the change? What is the safety concern?
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Violation YES ,Hazard NO.
Nec is not about opinions and we as electricians are not qualified to redesign UL listed items and certify them as still listed.Anything that breaks that easy should not be used.Not going to bring up bubble covers this early.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Violation YES ,Hazard NO.
Nec is not about opinions and we as electricians are not qualified to redesign UL listed items and certify them as still listed.Anything that breaks that easy should not be used.Not going to bring up bubble covers this early.
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Does any expect a breaker manufacture to sell a non listed enclosure? And assuming every install is inspected, how does a panel like this ever make it on to the street?
Facrisake, this panel was installed a long time ago & was listed, therefore it should be grandfathered.
So how can it be a violation unless its a new install? Violation of the 2005 NEC?
If I remember right the OP's profile says "Risk Management" Should he be more worry'd about the temperature of my coffee from McDonalds?
 
Violation - Maybe, Hazzard-Yes.

I think giving kids easy access to the breakers is just asking for trouble. The NEC doesn't require the kids to wear life jackets while canoeing, but that doesn't make it safe. In my opinion, you should tell the electrician to install a lockable cover even if it isn't a code requirement.

Steve
 
Thanks

I was an old federal panel after further investication and yes the breakers are set up both ways.

Will let it go for now until upgrades are made.

Tahnsk again.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Violation YES ,Hazard NO.
Click to expand...

Jim,
This is only your opinion, unless you have read the UL 50 requirements for electrical enclosures or contacted the specific manufacturer.

My opinion is: there would be no NEC violation or hazard unless the removal of the door left openings in the remaining deadfront that were larger than 1/4" dia. or provided direct access to energized parts (these are the basic requirements for a UL Type 1 enclosure).
 
Generally speaking, there is no increased hazard with the door removed compared to the door open... and for the time being, I assume the testing for listing took into consideration the door may be open at some time during it's use :D I don't believe there to be any requirement the door be closed at all times other than when flipping a breaker handle... or is there?
 
77401,

Your a funny guy,we are discussing panel covers and somehow now we are

jumping out of planes. As far as the JumpMaster loving someone goes,you can

have him. As far as this thread goes,there are only opinions,in this case for

the OP'er to review. If my opinion is different from your's it's OK,you don't

have to jump out of planes over it!

Is getting a new panel cover the wrong thing to do? JMO.
 
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