circuit tripping arc fault

[JDB3]

I have a single family dwelling that I have just trimmed out. One circuit that has several duplex receptacles, a few lights and 4 recess [(Halo E7 ICAT) {6" ICAT new construction housing}].
Turning the switch on for the recess, the HOM 120 Arc Fault breaker trips. Taking all 4 bulbs Sylvania 65BR bulbs out, turning switch on, breaker is fine. Put 1 bulb in, breaker trips (Nothing else is on). Put 1 LED 8.5 watt bulb in, O.K. Put 2nd LED 8.5 watt in, trips. :?
Swapped that breaker with another working one in the panel, that breaker trips. Changed breaker to different phase in panel, breaker trips. :?
Any helpful advise would be appreciated very much :happyyes:

 

[ptonsparky]

I have a single family dwelling that I have just trimmed out. One circuit that has several duplex receptacles, a few lights and 4 recess [(Halo E7 ICAT) {6" ICAT new construction housing}].
Turning the switch on for the recess, the HOM 120 Arc Fault breaker trips. Taking all 4 bulbs Sylvania 65BR bulbs out, turning switch on, breaker is fine. Put 1 bulb in, breaker trips (Nothing else is on). Put 1 LED 8.5 watt bulb in, O.K. Put 2nd LED 8.5 watt in, trips. :?
Swapped that breaker with another working one in the panel, that breaker trips. Changed breaker to different phase in panel, breaker trips. :?
Any helpful advise would be appreciated very much :happyyes:

Make sure your neutrals are connected properly at the breaker and you are not sharing neutrals. Make sure you do not have ground fault on the neutral, EG touching the white screw in a device box.

 

[kwired]

New Homeline AFCI's have diagnostic feature to tell you reason for last trip event, have you used this feature?

Press and hold the test button while turning the breaker on, if it trips immediately you have a ground fault, if it trips in about 2 seconds it was because of AFCI feature, if it trips after 5 seconds there is no fault or it last tripped on thermal magnetic function (standard breaker functions).

This helps you determine which of those three major things to narrow your search down to. You have narrowed it down some just by removing lamps and it doesn't trip - but with no load at all it still could be arc fault or ground fault function that is causing the trip. Ground fault could easily be mis-connected neutral and the only contribution putting the lamp in the circuit does is add enough load to make it trip on that function, though nothing is wrong with the lamp.

 

[ptonsparky]

New Homeline AFCI's have diagnostic feature to tell you reason for last trip event, have you used this feature?

Press and hold the test button while turning the breaker on, if it trips immediately you have a ground fault, if it trips in about 2 seconds it was because of AFCI feature, if it trips after 5 seconds there is no fault or it last tripped on thermal magnetic function (standard breaker functions).

This helps you determine which of those three major things to narrow your search down to. You have narrowed it down some just by removing lamps and it doesn't trip - but with no load at all it still could be arc fault or ground fault function that is causing the trip. Ground fault could easily be mis-connected neutral and the only contribution putting the lamp in the circuit does is add enough load to make it trip on that function, though nothing is wrong with the lamp.

We seldom use HOM so I called my local counter guy to see if they had that or a similar feature. He said, No. Dang Kid is fairly new at the job so now I’ll have to go in and educate him. Whippersnapper.

 

[kwired]

We seldom use HOM so I called my local counter guy to see if they had that or a similar feature. He said, No. Dang Kid is fairly new at the job so now I’ll have to go in and educate him. Whippersnapper.

Unless they have some old stock, they all have it now. Instructions say this is included on all units with date code of 1130 or higher - not sure what date that code represents though, but I believe they have had this for at least 3-5 years now.

ADD: I think it came about the same time Dual Function breakers came out.

 

[JDB3]

New Homeline AFCI's have diagnostic feature to tell you reason for last trip event, have you used this feature?

Press and hold the test button while turning the breaker on, if it trips immediately you have a ground fault, if it trips in about 2 seconds it was because of AFCI feature, if it trips after 5 seconds there is no fault or it last tripped on thermal magnetic function (standard breaker functions).

This helps you determine which of those three major things to narrow your search down to. You have narrowed it down some just by removing lamps and it doesn't trip - but with no load at all it still could be arc fault or ground fault function that is causing the trip. Ground fault could easily be mis-connected neutral and the only contribution putting the lamp in the circuit does is add enough load to make it trip on that function, though nothing is wrong with the lamp.

It is straight "arc fault" breaker, no ground fault . Thanks

 

[kwired]

It is straight "arc fault" breaker, no ground fault . Thanks

It has a ground fault and an arc fault component. The "ground fault" component is 30 mA instead of the 4-6 mA that a class A GFCI will trip at.

If you have the circuit neutral tied/faulted to another circuit neutral or other grounded object, any current over that 30 mA threshold will cause it to trip on the GFP function.

Many (but not all) AFCI "nuisance tripping" issues are the result of something triggering the GFP component.

 

[JDB3]

Make sure your neutrals are connected properly at the breaker and you are not sharing neutrals. Make sure you do not have ground fault on the neutral, EG touching the white screw in a device box.

I will go back & check all the receptacles on that circuit. I am 99.99% sure that neutral is properly connected & none of the circuits are multi-wire. Thanks

 

[kwired]

I will go back & check all the receptacles on that circuit. I am 99.99% sure that neutral is properly connected & none of the circuits are multi-wire. Thanks

Disconnect neutral from the breaker, test for continuity to EGC. Anything but infinity reading is a ground fault on the neutral. May hold when you turn it on, but will trip as soon as load exceeds 30 mA leaking onto the EGC.

 

[JDB3]

It has a ground fault and an arc fault component. The "ground fault" component is 30 mA instead of the 4-6 mA that a class A GFCI will trip at.

If you have the circuit neutral tied/faulted to another circuit neutral or other grounded object, any current over that 30 mA threshold will cause it to trip on the GFP function.

Many (but not all) AFCI "nuisance tripping" issues are the result of something triggering the GFP component.

I was not aware that the Homeline Arc Fault breaker had a "ground fault" component to it. None of the circuits a multi-wire & I am fairly certain that all of the device boxes contain a single circuit in them. Thanks

 

[kwired]

I was not aware that the Homeline Arc Fault breaker had a "ground fault" component to it. None of the circuits a multi-wire & I am fairly certain that all of the device boxes contain a single circuit in them. Thanks

When AFCI's first came out, they all had a GF component in them, it was the only way the manufacturers could meet listing standards at the time. GE has had for some time now units that can meet listing standards without a GF component, maybe there are some others IDK. With those you can share a neutral on MWBC's or have neutral to ground connection and they won't trip.

I don't know that other manufacturers all agree on what GE has done and therefore they choose to continue to use GF component. This all goes much deeper if you get into debates of whether AFCI's do what we are told they will do, which I don't want to see this thread go into that, but there are many threads on this site that go a lot deeper into what GFP function is all about and whether or not that is more important component than the AFCI component when it comes to protection of life/property.

 

[readydave8]

Turning the switch on for the recess, the HOM 120 Arc Fault breaker trips. Taking all 4 bulbs Sylvania 65BR bulbs out, turning switch on, breaker is fine. Put 1 bulb in, breaker trips (Nothing else is on). Put 1 LED 8.5 watt bulb in, O.K. Put 2nd LED 8.5 watt in,

The arc fault breaker has to have load before it will trip, that thing about bulbs is a little confusing otherwise

 

[GoldDigger]

The arc fault breaker has to have load before it will trip, that thing about bulbs is a little confusing otherwise

The lowest threshold (for series arc detection) is around 8A, so it is very unlikely that any pure arc fault detection is in play. Much more likely a wiring error that only trips the GF component when the load is above a much smaller threshold. Say, for example, that an unwanted parallel path is carrying 10% of the load current that should be 100% on the neutral. The 30ma GF would then, trip at a load current of 300ma.

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