Clarification on bathroom receptacles

[ceb58]

I see it as Dennis dose. Nothing to prevent any 15amp circt. in the bathroom. I had, during rough in, the home owner wanting a recpt. in the toilet area in the master bath. (separate area with a door) She wanted to plug in a nightlight in the area. Pull 3ft from bedroom circ. or run 40ft from 20amp circ. in sink area. The 3ft pull won. Inspector never said a word.

 

[taylorp]

This is what I dislike about the NEC. This should be a simple and straightforward thing, but it's not. If the code experts here can't agree one way or the other, how could we expect the hundreds of thousands of inspectors around the country to give consistent interpretations?

Yes, that is the big problem. I'm sure that the people who wrote the actual wording of the code know what they meant. But the problem with the English language is that words can be written and arranged to mean many different things.

About the only thing the code says that I am 100% sure that I understand (I think) are the words in 90.5. Shall or Shall Not and Shall be Permitted or Shall not be required.

The NFPA admits that it doesn't exactly know how what they have written will be understood: "The NFPA also makes no guaranty or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any information
published herein."

Go figure?

 

[kwired]

I see it as Dennis dose. Nothing to prevent any 15amp circt. in the bathroom. I had, during rough in, the home owner wanting a recpt. in the toilet area in the master bath. (separate area with a door) She wanted to plug in a nightlight in the area. Pull 3ft from bedroom circ. or run 40ft from 20amp circ. in sink area. The 3ft pull won. Inspector never said a word.

Check Art 100 definition of a bathroom.

Your separate area with only a toilet does not meet this definition, so it should not even enter into the argument of whether it requires a 20 amp circuit for a receptacle.

 

[kwired]

I have always understood the requirement for all bath receptacles to be on a 20 amp circuit.

After reading this thread and reading the mentioned sections again it is clear as mud.

210.11 C 2 and 3 are very similar in how they are worded. Note the (s) after the word outlet in both sections yet they both also say 'shall have no other outlets'

The only required outlet in the bath is the one near the sink but you can have more than one and you can have others in the bath on the same circuit. Does not say other outlets in same area are not allowed to be on 15 amp circuit.

One outlet(s)-(??)- is required for the laundry.

The small appliance branch circuit requirements are spelled out more clearly. Maybe not all in one code section but they are not nearly as questionable about what outlets are permitted on the SABC and whether a 15 amp circuit is allowed to serve the same areas.

 

[ceb58]

Check Art 100 definition of a bathroom.

Your separate area with only a toilet does not meet this definition, so it should not even enter into the argument of whether it requires a 20 amp circuit for a receptacle.

I think it would. And my fault for not being clearer. The toilet was in what was shown and accepted on the plans as a master bathroom. It was installed between the dividing wall of the master bedroom and shower stall wall. So it was in an area that included a basin,shower and tub.

 

[kwired]

I think it would. And my fault for not being clearer. The toilet was in what was shown and accepted on the plans as a master bathroom. It was installed between the dividing wall of the master bedroom and shower stall wall. So it was in an area that included a basin,shower and tub.

Art 100 definition of bathroom just says area so I see your logic but it does not define any boundaries to the area. Most will say that your area has a door that makes it a separate area from the bath but is a related area function wise. One could also say that if it is not part of the bathroom then a receptacle in there is not allowed on with the bathroom circuit.

Still clear as mud? Maybe a little silt has settled and we just have some cloudy water.

To add more confusion I have seen a vanity that is essentially in the bedroom, and a door to a separate space containing shower and toilet. If you put a receptacle at the vanity there is not much question of needing GFCI protection, but is it a bath receptacle requiring a 20 amp circuit or a bedroom circuit that can be 15 or 20 amp and now also requires AFCI protection? How about a receptacle installed in the space with the shower and toilet? Space does not meet definition of a bathroom. You have a master suite but no real NEC defined bathroom in this case.

The place where I recall seeing this arrangement was old enough that the 20 amp circuit requirement for bath receptacle outlets did not exist and was likely on with the bedroom circuit.

 

[ceb58]

Art 100 definition of bathroom just says area so I see your logic but it does not define any boundaries to the area. Most will say that your area has a door that makes it a separate area from the bath but is a related area function wise. One could also say that if it is not part of the bathroom then a receptacle in there is not allowed on with the bathroom circuit.

Still clear as mud? Maybe a little silt has settled and we just have some cloudy water.

To add more confusion I have seen a vanity that is essentially in the bedroom, and a door to a separate space containing shower and toilet. If you put a receptacle at the vanity there is not much question of needing GFCI protection, but is it a bath receptacle requiring a 20 amp circuit or a bedroom circuit that can be 15 or 20 amp and now also requires AFCI protection? How about a receptacle installed in the space with the shower and toilet? Space does not meet definition of a bathroom. You have a master suite but no real NEC defined bathroom in this case.

The place where I recall seeing this arrangement was old enough that the 20 amp circuit requirement for bath receptacle outlets did not exist and was likely on with the bedroom circuit.

You are correct. Clear as mud. With the design of master baths theses day it is some times hard to figure out what is what. Its like a master bath I saw on one of those shows about multi-million $ homes. They showed the giant master bath that had two arm chairs and a coffee table in the middle of the room. I guess it was so people could set around and talk while waiting for the toilet

 

[M4gery]

You are correct. Clear as mud. With the design of master baths theses day it is some times hard to figure out what is what. Its like a master bath I saw on one of those shows about multi-million $ homes. They showed the giant master bath that had two arm chairs and a coffee table in the middle of the room. I guess it was so people could set around and talk while waiting for the toilet

On one of those shows I saw a master bedroom that was 1,500 sqft, it had a dining room in it with a huge table. Can that room use one of the SABC??

 

[Dennis Alwon]

On one of those shows I saw a master bedroom that was 1,500 sqft, it had a dining room in it with a huge table. Can that room use one of the SABC??

I did one with a microwave, coffee machine and under counter refrig. I installed gfci for all the receptacle circuits. There were individual circuits for these appliances but they were not connected to the sink area receptacles.

 

[Mr 3phase]

If I read one of your postings correctly, this is 'old work'. You are adding receptacle in a finished bathroom. The simple answer is that 'old work' requires making holes to get wire from point 'A' to point 'B'. That's life.
Furthermore, home owners inevitably will find a way or reason to use a receptacle in a way or with load it is not designed for. Install a 20 amp receptacle, patch the holes and move on.
I am a retired fire fighter and master electrician. I have come to the conclusion that it is better to be exceptionally safe and slightly more costly, than to try to cut a corner, or attempt to decipher the code beyond how it is written. Just my opinion.

 

[iwire]

I have come to the conclusion that it is better to be exceptionally safe and slightly more costly, than to try to cut a corner,

Do you feel it is unsafe to properly install a 15 amp circuit?

 

[M4gery]

If I read one of your postings correctly, this is 'old work'. You are adding receptacle in a finished bathroom. The simple answer is that 'old work' requires making holes to get wire from point 'A' to point 'B'. That's life.
Furthermore, home owners inevitably will find a way or reason to use a receptacle in a way or with load it is not designed for. Install a 20 amp receptacle, patch the holes and move on.
I am a retired fire fighter and master electrician. I have come to the conclusion that it is better to be exceptionally safe and slightly more costly, than to try to cut a corner, or attempt to decipher the code beyond how it is written. Just my opinion.

You said the phrase "slightly more costly". In reality, it would be about triple or quadruple the cost to the customer, plus extra work to have the walls patched up and textured properly.

Unfortunately the code is written in a way that needs to be deciphered, that's why this forum exists. I can't see a valid reason not to do what I said if the code allows it. You might be the type of contractor who will do everything in the most expensive way possible, but some of us have competition to deal with.

If I give this customer a high estimate and explain to them that their walls need to be opened up and fixed afterwards, and then they get an estimate from ABC Electric for a quarter of the amount for a code compliant installation with no opening up of the wall, how is that going to make me look? The customer will think I'm like one of those taxi cab drivers that takes the customer out of the way just to run the meter up higher.

 

[Little Bill]

I have a situation in which a customer wants a receptacle installed inside of a shelving unit for a couple of small items to charge. It's a large bathroom and this shelving unit is far from the sink or anywhere that something like a curling iron, hairdryer, etc. would be plugged in.

Since I have no access above or below, running the existing 20A bathroom circuit over to this spot would be rather difficult and require many patches on multiple walls. On the other side of this wall is a bedroom with a receptacle in the same stud bay that the new receptacle will be, so tapping off of that circuit would be clean and easy.

I do not believe that I would be doing a disservice to the homeowner.

Is the shelving unit in a cabinet or is it more than 5-1/2' above the floor? If so. I think the first paragraph of 210.52 would apply, which states that this receptacle would be in addition to the required 20A receptacle. Just my thoughts on this.

 

[ceb58]

I have a situation in which a customer wants a receptacle installed inside of a shelving unit for a couple of small items to charge. It's a large bathroom and this shelving unit is far from the sink or anywhere that something like a curling iron, hairdryer, etc. would be plugged in.

Since I have no access above or below, running the existing 20A bathroom circuit over to this spot would be rather difficult and require many patches on multiple walls. On the other side of this wall is a bedroom with a receptacle in the same stud bay that the new receptacle will be, so tapping off of that circuit would be clean and easy.

I do not believe that I would be doing a disservice to the homeowner.

In this given situation I would tap off of the 15amp and never blink.

 

[George Stolz]

In this given situation I would tap off of the 15amp and never blink.

It would take too long to stave off blinking, but I would have no remorse.

 

[kwired]

Is the shelving unit in a cabinet or is it more than 5-1/2' above the floor? If so. I think the first paragraph of 210.52 would apply, which states that this receptacle would be in addition to the required 20A receptacle. Just my thoughts on this.

You are correct in the fact that the outlet is in addition to 210.52 requirements.

But 210.52 has nothing to do with whether or not this outlet is supplied by a 15 or 20 amp circuit, or if it is required to be on with the circuit required by 210.11 (C).

 

[Mr 3phase]

You said the phrase "slightly more costly". In reality, it would be about triple or quadruple the cost to the customer, plus extra work to have the walls patched up and textured properly.

Unfortunately the code is written in a way that needs to be deciphered, that's why this forum exists. I can't see a valid reason not to do what I said if the code allows it. You might be the type of contractor who will do everything in the most expensive way possible, but some of us have competition to deal with.

If I give this customer a high estimate and explain to them that their walls need to be opened up and fixed afterwards, and then they get an estimate from ABC Electric for a quarter of the amount for a code compliant installation with no opening up of the wall, how is that going to make me look? The customer will think I'm like one of those taxi cab drivers that takes the customer out of the way just to run the meter up higher.

Well, all I can say to your responce is that i get plenty of work at a very decent rate. The customer tells me what they want, and I tell them what I have to do to acheive their goal. If it requires cutting holes, then so be it. If they aren't happy with that, I merely show them the section of the coder book relative to the situation and inform them that I did not write the book I just have to abide by it. I explain in detail what I have to do and why.
I also tell them that am not the cheapest , but I stand behind my work, and do quality work.
By the way, I live in an area with a lot of union electricians that are out of work and doing work for beer money, so I do have competition.

 

[M4gery]

Well, all I can say to your responce is that i get plenty of work at a very decent rate. The customer tells me what they want, and I tell them what I have to do to acheive their goal. If it requires cutting holes, then so be it. If they aren't happy with that, I merely show them the section of the coder book relative to the situation and inform them that I did not write the book I just have to abide by it. I explain in detail what I have to do and why.
I also tell them that am not the cheapest , but I stand behind my work, and do quality work.
By the way, I live in an area with a lot of union electricians that are out of work and doing work for beer money, so I do have competition.

Taking into account everything you said, I can't see why you would propose so much more work when you know that your competition will come in and do a solid, code compliant installation for literally a fraction of the cost.

As for the out of work union men working for beer money, what about all their other expenses? I'd like to know where I could live and only have to buy beer :grin: But I wonder, is it only union men? Truth be told, the union has a very low market share. Also, there is no credible evidence to say that the unemployment rate of union electrician is significantly higher than non-union electrician. So let's be fair and accurate, remember that there is a greater chance that the guy under-cutting you is an out of work non-union electrician.

 

[jumper]

So, do you need a permit for this job? If so, what did your inspector say?

 

[Mr 3phase]

Taking into account everything you said, I can't see why you would propose so much more work when you know that your competition will come in and do a solid, code compliant installation for literally a fraction of the cost.

As for the out of work union men working for beer money, what about all their other expenses? I'd like to know where I could live and only have to buy beer :grin: But I wonder, is it only union men? Truth be told, the union has a very low market share. Also, there is no credible evidence to say that the unemployment rate of union electrician is significantly higher than non-union electrician. So let's be fair and accurate, remember that there is a greater chance that the guy under-cutting you is an out of work non-union electrician.

After giving the situation some thought, I called and asked 3 different electrical inspectors in three separate towns/ cities (all of who know me well and know that I 'respect' their position and authority as they have the final word). Every one of them told me the same thing, if I were to install an outlet in a bathroom, per their interpretation of the code, it would have to be a 20 amp circuit, and a gfic outlet , no matter how far from the sink.

As for the price of a job and the work involved, I do a lot of 'old work' and I would be the first person to look long and hard at how to do a job at a reasonable rate and NOT have to do any cutting of holes for fishing wire if it is possible to avoid. However, in my opinion, there are certain areas of a home where the inspector will want some thing that may be beyond what anyone interprets is a code requirement.
I have learned (while working as an apprentice) that it costs more to re do something when the inspector fails it, no matter what you may think is the correct interpretation of the code. Again, just my opinion, but those three letters AHJ tell you who is going to make your day or break it, no matter how you may interpet the code.
Thank you for the dialogue.