Class-A GFCI's are not well suited

[FionaZuppa]

class-A GFCI's are not well suited for many types of applications. what is the GFCI connected to?

 

[iwire]

class-A GFCI's are not well suited for many types of applications. what is the GFCI connected to?

No, do not spread that myth.

 

[mbrooke]

class-A GFCI's are not well suited for many types of applications. what is the GFCI connected to?

What would those be though? For most applications where mandated by code with appliances made in the last 20-30 years GFCIs do well.

 

[JFletcher]

What would those be though? For most applications where mandated by code with appliances made in the last 20-30 years GFCIs do well.

expensive italian expresso makers. Seems like there is a thread here every month on those.

Old AFCI are awesome. Old lady calls saying her vac doesnt work in the living room. Check it, sure enough the LR AFCI trips the second it's plugged in and turned on. None of the other 3 (it's VA) AFCI breakers trip with same vac. Replace breaker with newer AFCI, it works, profit. Sometimes you dont need to know why it works.... my theory is some breakers are emo, i.e. more sensitive than others. Maybe the breaker committed AFCI suicide, who knows?

I've actually found far far more GFCI breakers that wont trip with the test button than AFCI that are bad under any circumstance, but that's comparing 30+ yo breakers to new... not exactly apples to apples.

 

[mbrooke]

expensive italian expresso makers. Seems like there is a thread here every month on those.

Old AFCI are awesome. Old lady calls saying her vac doesnt work in the living room. Check it, sure enough the LR AFCI trips the second it's plugged in and turned on. None of the other 3 (it's VA) AFCI breakers trip with same vac. Replace breaker with newer AFCI, it works, profit. Sometimes you dont need to know why it works.... my theory is some breakers are emo, i.e. more sensitive than others. Maybe the breaker committed AFCI suicide, who knows?

I've actually found far far more GFCI breakers that wont trip with the test button than AFCI that are bad under any circumstance, but that's comparing 30+ yo breakers to new... not exactly apples to apples.

With time everything gets better. Newer GFCIs don't trip on inrush/transients, newer appliances leak far less current and newer AFCIs tend to hold better- in addition to newer equipment having a "better" wave form.

 

[macmikeman]

With time everything gets better. Newer GFCIs don't trip on inrush/transients, newer appliances leak far less current and newer AFCIs tend to hold better- in addition to newer equipment having a "better" wave form.

Then let's please hurry up and get ''new'' with these self testing gfi's. I had to drive halfway around the stinking island last week to change out one. One that never even got any use other than the testing during final inspection......

 

[JFletcher]

Then let's please hurry up and get ''new'' with these self testing gfi's. I had to drive halfway around the stinking island last week to change out one. One that never even got any use other than the testing during final inspection......

You're in HI, you're not allowed to complain to mainlanders.

 

[mbrooke]

Then let's please hurry up and get ''new'' with these self testing gfi's. I had to drive halfway around the stinking island last week to change out one. One that never even got any use other than the testing during final inspection......

At least I hope you complained to the manufacturer with a full reimbursement. I had a 5 year old GFCI fail and Levion sent one over free of charge.

 

[iwire]

expensive italian expresso makers. Seems like there is a thread here every month on those.

I would say the fancy expresso machine is what is not suitable for the purpose

The GFCI is fine.

 

[FionaZuppa]

No, do not spread that myth.

hmmmm. is there perhaps a disconnect between NEC and this author (http://www.csemag.com/single-article/ul-s-new-gfci-classes/89c8746cdc4a7fd8a3cb93f1d51ba57a.html) ??

"Shock risks are also present in wet work areas with large portable fans or heaters and in any area where machinery is subject to washdown cleaning. All these applications would benefit from GFCI protection, yet Class A GFCIs are unsuitable for these applications for a variety of technical reasons."

is there an application within NEC that this may be true??


according to UL, if it has EGC or dbl insulation, class-C is sufficient for people protection.



also see http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/special-purpose-gfcis

 

[mbrooke]

hmmmm. is there perhaps a disconnect between NEC and this author (http://www.csemag.com/single-article/ul-s-new-gfci-classes/89c8746cdc4a7fd8a3cb93f1d51ba57a.html) ??



is there an application within NEC that this may be true??


according to UL, if it has EGC or dbl insulation, class-C is sufficient for people protection.



also see http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/special-purpose-gfcis

Three things:

1. It appears that UL ripped this graph out of IEC technical report 1200 413:

Where 30ma protection is considered "people" protection. Since UL became for-profit they have become utterly incapable of having a single original thought.


2. Open EGCs create a risk for all these industrial machines. Question how often does this occur.


3. Large industrial machines have larger leakage current exceeding 5ma. So the next best thing is 10 or 30ma.

 

[mbrooke]

Here is that curve from the 1997 version of that IEC technical report:

 

[iwire]

30 ma is not people protection under the NEC or OSHA

As far as 'large industrial machines' the GFCI receptacle requirements stop at 125 volts 20 amps.

So not large at all

 

[mbrooke]

30 ma is not people protection under the NEC or OSHA

By definition that is true, hence why GFIs outside of class A had to be "reformulated":

UL 943C requires that Class C, D, and E GFCIs monitor its integrity and trip if it opens.

The reliability of the grounding circuit could be demonstrated by a ground monitoring system that monitors the grounding path between the service and the load. If an unacceptable increase in resistance in the grounding path occurs, the circuit will be opened by the ground monitoring system.

As far as 'large industrial machines' the GFCI receptacle requirements stop at 125 volts 20 amps.

So not large at all

Does it? Have you read the 2017? The danger of open EGCs does not stop at any particular size.

 

[iwire]

By definition that is true, hence why GFIs outside of class A had to be "reformulated":
















Does it? Have you read the 2017? The danger of open EGCs does not stop at any particular size.

Please link me to a 30 mA GFCI for sale.

No I have not

I have said nothing about the dangers only the current requirements

 

[mbrooke]

Please link me to a 30 mA GFCI for sale.

Notice my use of "GFI", not GFCI

No I have not

http://scn.industries.ul.com/blog/2017-nec-changes-have-been-announced

I have said nothing about the dangers only the current requirements

True, but you did hint by using it in context. Machines of all sizes can suffer an open EGC. Which brings me to the point I am trying to present to Mr. Zappa. Open EGCs are the primary driver behind GFCIs and SPGFCIs, not the other way around.

 

[iwire]

Notice my use of "GFI", not GFCI

And notice I did.

GFCI is what the NEC requires for people protection. As it stands today you cannot use a GFP for GFCI.

GFP is equipment protection

GFI is nothing.

http://scn.industries.ul.com/blog/2017-nec-changes-have-been-announced

I looked at you link, I see nothing to support the argument that 30Ma is people protection.

True, but you did hint by using it in context. Machines of all sizes can suffer an open EGC.

I did not hint at anything. Come on by this time you must know I am all about the NEC here.

I made no comment on the hazards only the current requirements.

Which brings me to the point I am trying to present to Mr. Zappa. Open EGCs are the primary driver behind GFCIs and SPGFCIs, not the other way around.

Funny, in the past when you and I have talked about GFCIs you seemed to feel open EGCs where not an issue driving GFCI requirements.

 

[iwire]

hmmmm. is there perhaps a disconnect between NEC and this author (http://www.csemag.com/single-article/ul-s-new-gfci-classes/89c8746cdc4a7fd8a3cb93f1d51ba57a.html) ??

No, the disconnect is with you.

Presently the loads that are typically required to be on GFCI are suitable for GFCIs.

The upcoming changes expand the requiments into higher voltages and currents.

Of course a 2016 Class A GFCI is not going to play well with equipment running at those voltages or current level.

is there an application within NEC that this may be true??

No, not under the current NEC.

But not all equipment is powered by 120 or 125 Vac. Submersible pumps in large decorative fountains use integral horsepower motors running up to 460 V, while pumps in large commercial water slides may run to 500 hp or more and at 460 V or greater. Wastewater plants often use pumps running at these voltages. Other high-voltage equipment that presents an elevated risk of electric shock includes wet saws, processing equipment handling wet material, and arc welding receptacles.

You don't see a difference between the text above and the 15 & 20 amp 125 volt circuits I was talking about?

according to UL, if it has EGC or dbl insulation, class-C is sufficient for people protection.

That is great, until an NEC is adopted agreeing with that it is meaningless.

also see http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/special-purpose-gfcis

Three times you have tried to use links about equipment above 125 volts, above 15 & 20 amps to discredit my statement about equipment 125 volts and 20 amps and lower.

Well guess what, that does not work.

Did you even read the links you posted?

 

[FionaZuppa]

this became its own thread??
anyways, why is 30mA being discussed, GFCI classes C/D/E trip at 20mA

Class C, D, and E GFCIs trip at 20 mA rather than the 6 mA trip current mandated for Class A GFCIs. This increase in GFCI trip level is allowed by UL assuming the availability of a reliable ground in parallel with the body. During a fault, the grounding conductor will shunt the fault current around the body and cause the device to trip. This provides the let-go protection, while the 20 mA threshold provides protection against fibrillation. (If there is no grounding conductor, such as in two-wire household products, then the GFCI must provide both let-go and fibrillation protection, and a Class A device is required.)

this statement shows that class-A is required where 1- cap-cord may be possible, which makes sense, however, not every use of GFCI falls into this application, as i had already mentioned, so kinda baffling as to why NEC calls out class-A for GFCI in art100.

OSHA was mentioned, and if you read OSHA 1926.404(b)(1)(iii)(D) you'll see that they demand EGC for GFCI..... seems like they recognize the hazard(s) when there is no EGC.

 

[FionaZuppa]

hmmm, NEC says EGC is required for GFCI ??

The National Electrical Code requires that GFCI systems be grounded to ensure that a low-impedance fault path exists back to the OCPD. However, the GFCI portion of the system will function even without a ground wire; they are simply more susceptible to accidental breaker trips and sensing problems.

http://www.esgroundingsolutions.com...hnical-reason-to-put-a-gfci-on-a-refrigerator/