Classified Breakers?

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Re: Classified Breakers?

It is of my opinion that the homeowner's insurance would play a big factor here. If a breaker is classified by UL for installation in a given panel and, as such, meets the requirements of the electrical codes adopted in that community, i.e. the NEC, I would be of the understanding that it would not be at odds with the homeowner's insurance and, as such, would be a a?non issue regardless of voiding the manufacturer's warranty. ;)
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

service industry would naturally stock the residential breakers 'classified' for the widest marketability

i use T&B

however, i'm open to suggestion

so to get to the nitty gritty, what type is most diverse?

[ February 01, 2004, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: romex jockey ]
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

One thing to think about from the warranty perspective is that the manufacturer of the classified breakers warrants those breakers if they are used in a classified/listed panel.

I'd also add that CH has 1" and 3/4" classified breakers for Sq D, ITE/Seimens, GE, Crouse-Hinds, Murray, T&B.

Lot of good questions around warranty but the UL and NEC standards are clear from the code perspective. There should not be any situations where you get red-tagged from a classfied breaker in someone else's loadcenter as long as it is on the listing sheet (every manufacturer's classified breaker should have one in the box.)
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

The first one to indicate the warranty is voided if another manufacturer's circuit breakers are used was Square D. In CMP 10, covering Article 240, George Gregory with Square D sits next to and is the alternate to Clive Kimblin who is with Cutler-Hammer. I wonder if it is a coincidence that they both have the same idea and now others are following? :D

My concern is that the DIY has no clue what the AIC means on circuit breakers or even if it is not there at all. I have seen classified circuit breakers in the big box stores with no AIC marking at all. That is fine in some areas with small services because the service drop will limit the available fault current to less than 5 kA. That is not a true statement in the newer homes with larger services in the burbs with front lot UG services just off the transformers. :roll:
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

Thank you for your insight on that Charlie. The AIC rating point is a VERY good one. I'll be certain to keep my eye on that when I see them in the feild.
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

Interesting thread.

As an inspector, I see the mixing of breakers in panels all the time.

What I look for is that the main and breakers all have the same AIC rating. Other than that, what could you look for?

I am not buying into it is a violation of 110.3(b). While many here can argue that point, I don't know of any single manufacturer that would list other manufacturers products on their labels, it just does not make good business sense. Does Ford recommend you replace parts with GM parts. Of course not. Why would electrical products be any different!

I don't buy into the voiding the warranty theory, simply because that is a simple scare tactic (and it works I might add) to get people to buy only their parts. If indeed you installed a breaker in another manufacturers panel that breaker would have to cause the failure of the panel in order for the warranty to be voided and you would be going back on the breaker that manufactured the breaker to begin with. Does anyone here believe that Square D should warranty Murray breakers installed in their panels?

The UL listing is an interesting argument, the only one here that warrants any merit in this argument.

Does anyone here know if that poster was marketing material from a manufacturer, or was it produced by UL? Maybe it was something along the line of a manufacturer was trying to make everyone aware that breakers have different AIC ratings and you should be using ones with the same ratings as the main breaker in the panel.

Joe Myers
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

For those that may not have seen it, this is a Memo from a few years ago that addresses this:

Murray.jpg


Bill
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

Bill,
All of the manufacturer's of panels have a similar statement, even people like C-H who also makes classified breakers. There is no code issue in using classified breakers. There may be a warrantee issue, but that is a legal issue not a code or safety issue.
Look at this statement from a SquareD Document
We support the electrical inspection system and the rejection of Classified Circuit Breakers. The red tag is an identification means
that signals a non-compliance to the basic safety requirements in the NEC. The inspector community generally agrees that Classified Circuit Breakers are not an appropriate substitute for the circuit breakers marked on the Listed panel.
Click to expand...
From another SquareD Document.
To maintain the integrity and safety intended, install only breakers marked on the load center label and/or wiring diagram. QO load centers are marked to accept only genuine QO circuit breakers. QO circuit breakers should only be used in panels marked to accept them. Any other use voids your warranty and may reduce protection, increase liability risks, and violate the National Electrical Code.
Click to expand...
All of the manufacturer's are trying to protect their turf. It is still my opinion that the use of classified breakers within the limits of the UL classification is safe and code compliant. Statements like this from breaker manufacturer's will not change my mind. The only thing that will do that is if UL withdraws the classified breaker listing.
Don
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

UL or some other NRTL has actually tested the classified breakers with all the panelboards that they are listed to be used with. As far as the Code is concerned, a classified circuit breaker is acceptable to be used as long as it has been listed for use in that panelboard.

The warranty issue is a separate issue and a manufacturer may void the warranty is they so desire. As far as the car parts analogy, if I have a brand new car, I will use only the parts from that brand until the warranty is gone. I will not go to a parts house and get generic parts for my new car. :D
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

Joe Myers
I am the original poster, and I wish I had a good stake in the any of the manufacturers of the breakers, but I do not. Nor do I have any relationship with UL. My original post was to see how the people (who are quite varied in backround)of this forum feel about this subject. I find it is funny to me how much distaste some people have for the manufacturers.
The responses have shown how there are a lot of opinions on this subject, but I wonder what the real legal implications are. It would be nice to hear what a construction attorney or other legal mind would have to say about this.

Pierre
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

Don,

I thought it was pretty convenient Square D choose to focus on the QO series and not the homeline. I, of course, am agreeing with your opinion of the protecting my part of the playground theory.

Pierre,

I don't know of any construction attorneys but I certainly know an attorney. Maybe he would be kind enough to give us his take.

As an inspector, I have never heard of, or seen this being a problem. If anyone here has any evidence of problems that are associated with it, I certainly would be very happy if they would share that wealth of knowledge with us.

I, for one, will continue to allow them to be used. Being in a litigious society that we are I can say with a fair amount of certainty I am sure the inspectors are just trying to cover their butts.

Joe Myers
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

Originally posted by jmmyers:
I, for one, will continue to allow them to be used. Being in a litigious society that we are I can say with a fair amount of certainty I am sure the inspectors are just trying to cover their butts.
Click to expand...
Joe to keep things clear do you mean?

1)You will continue to allow classified breakers to be used in panels they are specifically classified for?

That is no problem with the NEC just the warranty.

OR

2)You will continue to allow any breaker that fits to be used even if not specifically listed or classified for the panel they are installed in?


This is an NEC violation and you should not allow it.
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

Just to get back on the AIC issue. UL does not list any classified breaker past 10KAIC. Likewise, there are no series ratings for classified breakers either. If you want to use the panels as 22/10KAIC series rated devices you can not use any classified breakers.

In this area all "inspected" residential panels are required to be a minimum of 22KAIC series or fully rated. Most of the local POCOs are even requiring these in the rural areas where inspectors are absent.
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

If you feel a breaker is a breaker and should fit all panels, why don't you start some kind of boycot aimed at the manufacturers? It's not very difficult for the manufacturers to get together and write a standard which makes all breakers with the same nameplate data interchangeable. (Yes, I know there will be a number conditions and exceptions, but I think you get the point.)
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

Originally posted by jim dungar:

In this area all "inspected" residential panels are required to be a minimum of 22KAIC series or fully rated. Most of the local POCOs are even requiring these in the rural areas where inspectors are absent.
Click to expand...
I wonder why that is? It seems to me that a 5KAIC breaker is suffiecient in most cases, isn't it?
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

It seems to me that a 5KAIC breaker is sufficient in most cases, isn't it?
Click to expand...
Ryan, you are correct for most overhead served dwellings where a #2 or #4 Al. Tri. drop is used. The drop itself has enough impedance to keep the available fault current below 5 kA. However, the front lot, underground fed, large homes with 400 ampere and larger services and short runs of large cable will have a lot of available fault current. :eek:
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

Look at the following from a Cutler-Hammer document.
Original panelboard manufacturers may claim that the use of breakers, other than those specified, voids their warranty. However, the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act prevents manufacturers from making warranties contingent upon the use of their replacement parts, as long as the third-party part is safe. Since the safety has been proven by UL, the panelboard manufacturer?s warranty is still effective when you choose a CL or CHQ breaker.
The Cutler-Hammer business warrants its CL and CHQ Direct Replacement Circuit Breakers to be free from failures due to defects in material or workmanship for 15 years from the date of purchase. Additionally, should a failure of a CL or CHQ breaker occur that would cause damage to the loadcenter in which it is installed, the Cutler-Hammer business would repair or replace the loadcenter with an equivalent product upon delivery of the damaged components.
Click to expand...
Don
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

I just priced some classified breakers from my Cutler Hammer rep. today for an existing GE loadcenter.
15a 1-pole 1" AFCI = 35.00
15a 1-pole 1" = 4.25

Original GE 1" at big orange:
15a 1-pole AFCI = 34.97
15a 1-pole = 3.47

It cost me $1.59 more for the breakers that I needed, but I didn't have to go out of my way to get the name brand.

I have a Cutler Hammer 20a 1-pole classified replacement for Sq.D QO lying around. I don't know what the cost was or even the job that it came from anymore. It of course does not have the trip indicator window.
And I also have the same in a Siemens classified replacement Sq.D QO, again no trip indicator.
 
Re: Classified Breakers?

Now Luke think of it this way: if you have a service truck and space was at a price wouldn't it be better to stock fewer breakers that cover more brands of panels than trying to stock every breaker for every brand. and the fact that having them on hand will save you and your customer money in the long run. because you wont have to go looking where to get a peculiar breaker from. At least the ones that are covered on the list provided. Also a good idea is to copy the list that comes with the Classified Breaker and place a copy in the panel so no home inspector comes along and tell's the home owner they have to change it. as what has happen to me.
 
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