Clearances in a POCO substation

[gadfly56]

There I would argue 90.2(A)(4).
The control house isn’t an INTEGRAL part of the substation. There are many substations that work fine without a control house.
We have our control houses built off site to current codes and they come to us on a truck.
They are then set on a concrete pad.

A lawyer could argue that a control center as in 90.2(A)(4) could not include a “control house” because it isn’t “integral” (necessary to make a whole complete; essential or fundamental).
A control rack on the other hand would be considered a control center because it houses the protection and metering relays. Therefore it is integral.

Where do you see the word "integral?" The control house is on property owned or leased by the POCO and meets the one of the purposes contained in "b".

 

[Hv&Lv]

Where do you see the word "integral?" The control house is on property owned or leased by the POCO and meets the one of the purposes contained in "b".

Uhm... in the code article I’ve posted maybe?


90.2(A) Covered.
(4) Installations used by the electric utility, such as office buildings, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and recreational buildings, that are not an integral part of a generating plant, substation, or control center.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Where do you see the word "integral?" The control house is on property owned or leased by the POCO and meets the one of the purposes contained in "b".

By that reasoning my office is also. Even though the same article says it’s covered, are you saying it’s not?
I can control the flow of electricity in my office, I can meter in my office, and communicate with relays and substations in my office...

 

[gadfly56]

Uhm... in the code article I’ve posted maybe?


90.2(A) Covered.
(4) Installations used by the electric utility, such as office buildings, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and recreational buildings, that are not an integral part of a generating plant, substation, or control center.

OK, I clearly missed the reference. How do we reconcile A(4) with B(5)? The OP said the new installation was a control rack but didn't elaborate regarding the building and if it was as a substation or whatever.

 

[Hv&Lv]

OK, I clearly missed the reference. How do we reconcile A(4) with B(5)? The OP said the new installation was a control rack but didn't elaborate regarding the building and if it was as a substation or whatever.

For this I would have to stick with post 15 until some other valid counterpoints are presented.

 

[qcroanoke]

OK, I clearly missed the reference. How do we reconcile A(4) with B(5)? The OP said the new installation was a control rack but didn't elaborate regarding the building and if it was as a substation or whatever.

I have clearly stated that it is a CONTROL building located in a substation with more that just this one control rack, there are several racks. It is located on property owned and under the control of the POCO and the installed racks are too. You can't get in this building unless POCO lets you in.
I am only asking if the NEC has any jurisdiction in this building over equipment installed by the POCO.
I don't think they do per 90.2 (B) 5 b

 

[Hv&Lv]

I have clearly stated that it is a CONTROL building located in a substation with more that just this one control rack, there are several racks. It is located on property owned and under the control of the POCO and the installed racks are too. You can't get in this building unless POCO lets you in.
I am only asking if the NEC has any jurisdiction in this building over equipment installed by the POCO.
I don't think they do per 90.2 (B) 5 b

I understand that. But a control building (or house) is not necessary nor important to the actual control of the substation. It’s just somewhere that’s air conditioned And heated that happens to house the actual CONTROLs
Now, the actual control racks that have and house the metering wires, relay wiring, and communications to scada are different and would NOT be under the NEC.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I have clearly stated that it is a CONTROL building located in a substation with more that just this one control rack, there are several racks. It is located on property owned and under the control of the POCO and the installed racks are too. You can't get in this building unless POCO lets you in.
I am only asking if the NEC has any jurisdiction in this building over equipment installed by the POCO.
I don't think they do per 90.2 (B) 5 b

With all this being discussed, I can say honestly we have NEVER had an inspection in a substation. We heat it up and put the power on the controls and the house that encloses the controls...

Don’t really know if our inspector here would even inspect the station house even if we called for one.

He came and met me at a station one time last year, but it was to discuss picking grapes at my house...nothing electrical

 

[qcroanoke]

I understand that. But a control building (or house) is not necessary nor important to the actual control of the substation. It’s just somewhere that’s air conditioned And heated that happens to house the actual CONTROLs
Now, the actual control racks that have and house the metering wires, relay wiring, and communications to scada are different and would NOT be under the NEC.

I think that's what I've been asking.
Ok, If the rack and any controls on it do not fall under NEC enforcement do you think that the local inspector can come in and tell POCO your rack violates the working space of that power panel and you must move it?

 

[qcroanoke]

With all this being discussed, I can say honestly we have NEVER had an inspection in a substation. We heat it up and put the power on the controls and the house that encloses the controls...

Don’t really know if our inspector here would even inspect the station house even if we called for one.

He came and met me at a station one time last year, but it was to discuss picking grapes at my house...nothing electrical

I think most inspectors would tell you they have no authority there. In this senario anyway.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I think that's what I've been asking.
Ok, If the rack and any controls on it do not fall under NEC enforcement do you think that the local inspector can come in and tell POCO your rack violates the working space of that power panel and you must move it?

IF (and that’s a big if) they get it inspected, I believe they can tell them to move it.
but let’s think about this a minute...
What if the inspector tells them it doesn’t pass and move it? What happens then?
If you do this at a house or business you can’t get power turned on without an inspection. The POCO can simply connect the control house to the station transformer and be done..

 

[Hv&Lv]

I think most inspectors would tell you they have no authority there. In this senario anyway.

I believe so also.

 

[qcroanoke]

IF (and that’s a big if) they get it inspected, I believe they can tell them to move it.
but let’s think about this a minute...
What if the inspector tells them it doesn’t pass and move it? What happens then?
If you do this at a house or business you can’t get power turned on without an inspection. The POCO can simply connect the control house to the station transformer and be done..

We install a fair amount of POCO equipment and we strive to never violate 110.26. But sometimes it happens and our inspectors have a hissee fit about it. We most always move it if we can.

 

[gadfly56]

For this I would have to stick with post 15 until some other valid counterpoints are presented.

Respectfully, your post #15 doesn't fly. The OP says its a control building, it's on property owned or leased by the POCO so it meets the requirements of 5(B). The concept of "integral" doesn't apply as we are not in 4(A) anymore.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Respectfully, your post #15 doesn't fly. The OP says its a control building, it's on property owned or leased by the POCO so it meets the requirements of 5(B). The concept of "integral" doesn't apply as we are not in 4(A) anymore.

Suits me...
My office also meets those exact same requirements...