Client continually moving equip, ideas?

[Mule]

I have just started contracting for a client that has a HUGE manufacturing facility. Althought it creates alot of work for EC's the clients equipment locations is very dynamic and is constantly changing.

They moved into the building a couple of years ago and relocated existing bus duct in various locations. However still the the lack of home run pipes and cir/ft distance is very costly to keep changing as panels are few and the ceiling height is 20ft.

So thinking outside the box...."Have you ever seen" or "Do you think its a idea to consider" to install home run cable trays, hanging from red iron, running from, existing bus duc locations, and installing feed thru branch circuit panels along the cable tray length. Then from those branch circuit panels, twist lock recepts with flexible "To code" corded drops with strain reliefs and like. These drops could be disconected and re-located as production needs change. This cable tray could also house in a seperated channel plant air for like installations.

Loads are typicaly small for the most part, and include 120v convienence recepts and in some cases 20amp 480v recepts for cooling fans and small equipment. Then where larger machinery is located they would still have to be obviously hard wired via conduit, but also could benieft by cable tray at least in the ceiling, with conduit drops.

The first negative I see is tripped breakers would be a hassle to access, but this facilities maintenance dept is CONSTANTLY in the air on lifts anyway.

So While I havent considered any code compliance issues with this design such a branch circuit panel location, Im just thinking out loud.

Ideas?

 

[iwire]

The breakers in your sub panels can not be more then 6'-7" above the floor.

Lowe's gets around this by placing short sections of bus duct (like 4' to 8') and just putting a few breaker enclosures on that.

 

[Mule]

The breakers in your sub panels can not be more then 6'-7" above the floor.

Lowe's gets around this by placing short sections of bus duct (like 4' to 8') and just putting a few breaker enclosures on that.

I'll check that out at our local Lowes.....The client really needs 120/208 3ph/4wire bus duc installed but it would be a huge installation. They are currently utilizing existing xfrmr/pnl locations that are few in number which happen to be 120/240 3ph from previous owners

 

[iwire]

I'll check that out at our local Lowes.....

Look above the lighting department and the linoleum rack / dispenser.

 

[alfiesauce]

I was involved in a project for a large equipment manufacturer building a new faucility. The guys who had experience with the company said the way they were designing the new building was going to suck for the same reason- they always move equipment around and in the new building they were feeding every location with underslab conduit. The exsiting building had a huge network of bus duct that they could tap off of everytime they came up with a new "more efficient" process.

 

[cadpoint]

Where there master plan?

Where there master plan?

This is a case of white gloves treatment. You kind of have to put up with, well install this or that, or be progressive and say you can do a lot of things. Oh course you might not be the answer to all of their problems!

Where's the in-house Engineer in all this ? Where's the plant layout, where’s the riser diagram, better yet what shape are any of these drawings? Is the head maintenance man risen through the ranks
to his present position. How approachable is he, the engineer or this company to any of the following ?

Its sounds like the plant doesn't have a critical path, or even understand that they need one. It also sounds like there doing there own electrical work on the fly with no reference point as to cost and future needs.
It also looks like they need some outside consultants (an EE) to define this critical path with would define where to install their electrical work, and get a handle on all their electrical needs.

What is their plant maintenance yearly budget it sounds like they don't know that either ?!

Moving machinery is costly. You will not be the only discipline that required when this happens. As soon as it's moved and as soon as you'd hang cable tray or relocate bus duct you’ll be in the way of lights and other services, this will include moving or applying additional services? Will they be positive about this cause and effect situation, of the install.

If you continue to apply electrical work without a master plan it will just be as they have been doing. You will spot it sooner than the owner because they don't have a critical path in their plant!

Here's one suggestion: (just keep this in your pocket till you need to pull out)(( and it might not even be required.))
Get a drawing of the existing floor plan. Get a light meter and take various readings next to machines, and in open spaces. Take the open floor space shot at the machine directly facing nearest light (in respects to machine) then turn you back on that light and take a shot. Mark up the floor plan. With this you can al least have a idea of available lighting!

Here's another suggestion: Get a hold of the riser diagram and see what you have and break some panel covers off and see what you truly have.
A roll of onion skin paper comes in real handy here or even taping down
White tissue paper (the paper inside presents) comes in real handy here.

Charge or hire an experienced draftsperson to walk the plant to document everything if no documents exist. Even if they exist, insist to get in-house or hired person to update anything required!

This truly reminds me of the IBM commercial were they figure out they have to spend money to save money!

 

[cadpoint]

Here read some of this stuff, they'll seem to know which way the tide is rolling. http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=105204#post930912

 

[petersonra]

We have a customer that has a lot of small motors in their plants. They put every small 3 phase motor on a cord and plug because they are constantly having to move the motors out of the way to work on stuff. A whole lot easier than trying to undo conduit.

They even have a few spare motors made up with the cords so if they have to replace something it goes very fast.

And no worrying about whether the motor is energized or not once it is unplugged.

 

[petersonra]

Where's the in-house Engineer in all this ? Where's the plant layout, where’s the riser diagram, better yet what shape are any of these drawings? Is the head maintenance man risen through the ranks
to his present position. How approachable is he, the engineer or this company to any of the following ?

we have a couple customers like this. they are almost constantly moving stuff around.

one company has an EC on site with 3-4 guys working year round with more as needed to accommodate the process changes (I have seen as many as a couple dozen electricians there and I don't even go there much). we have two engineers who spend all of their time there just updating PLC and HMI programs, along with drawing updates.

there is also a mechanical contractor on site who typically has 5-10 guys there all the time.

this is a very profitable enterprise. the product they make changes a fair amount over time, and the packaging changes even more, and they come out with new products a lot. you have to do what it takes to accommodate the new and revised products.

 

[Mule]

This is a case of white gloves treatment.

The maintenance mangager is brand new, and IMO he is fully aware of the lack of planning and will have an effect on it in time....I think hes been there around 2-3 months... In fact he is the reason I have been hired, as he used to be my supervisor at another company. He too, is complaining about the lack of a master plan, planning, and just general forsight problems.

I also found out they have had four EC's in the last two years since this installation went in. Which, rasied a yellow flag for me naturally, so I asked the question "WHY?" The response I got was dragging out payments. Which turns out to be IMO growing pains for this new installation. I talked to the Mechanical Contractor that has been on site since day one, and he said invoices are getting paid regularly. He bills weekly and gets paid monthly, so after a month I will have a check every week. This job is not the cadillac of jobs but with the current economy at hand, its the only new work I have coming in, as my phone has been DEAD for the last week.

So back to my question......I think if someone would put a pencil to installing 120/208 3ph/4wire duc in, OR, installing more sub panels it would it would have a ROI. Or maybe they think that they will finally get things organized and equipment locations will stabilize.