close closet

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websparky

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Cleveland, Ohio
I am looking at a plan for a service upgrade in a house. The existing breaker panel is located in the bedroom close closet in the outside wall.
Would this be considered an installation because the panelboard will be replaced with a new one that has a 100A capacity. Or, would this panel location be just fine?
Please provide code references. Thanks!
 
Re: close closet

First I think this is a trick question. :)
Dave is too smart to not know the answer and the spelling on the title is suspect.

My answer would be relocate the panel.
This is to me a somewhat strange rule anyway.
In this area most panels are in basements with far more easily ignitable materials than many closets. But yet it is allowed.

[ January 08, 2006, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
Re: close closet

Originally posted by websparky:

The logic I guess I don't agree with is the "I want to do this the absolute cheepest way possible as long as I think it is code compliant.
:cool:
 
Re: close closet

Here is MY reference:
NJ Rehab Code - which allows just about any "pre-existing" condition.

Trick question? How about trick answer WITH a reference :D :D :D
 
Re: close closet

Dave I would say this is one of the times an inspector must use their judgment.

Is it a replacement (it can stay)

Or is it new (it has to move)

I think arguments could be made either way.

Of course I think Scott brings up a good point that panels are regularly allowed in much worse locations.
 
Re: close closet

Bob, you bring up an interesting point.

I believe it is required to be re-located according to the way I read the code and especially because of the reason the code gives for not allowing it.

The "trick" is I have a fellow inspector that seems to disagree with me and is using a similar logic that Bob has stated. The problem is, where is this logic stated or what is the basis of it?

Where I work there are no amendments to the electrical code. When I looked at the NJ rehab code, it said it had to be replaced too.
 
Re: close closet

I always try to hold the inspectors here to the letter of the NEC.

In this case the NEC does not spell it out so IMO it becomes up to the inspectors judgment.

They are the ones that are seeing all the factors, working clearances, what it would take to relocate it and what hardships that might bring on etc.

I suggest if you decide to have it moved make sure your having it moved because it really should be moved for safety reasons, not simply to prove that you can make them move it. :)

JMO, Bob
 
Re: close closet

In my opinion, there are some things that aren't worth getting excited about in a remodel. This is one of them.

Would I allow this in new construction? No.

So Dave, what happens when they want to replace the old federal pacific panel, but they don't want to relocate it due to price constraints? Do you stick to your guns and say no? Or do you do what I would do, and consider the safety. I would rather them replace an old panel that might be a safety concern than be a by the book inspector and not allow it because of an existing location.

What would you do if they said, "OK, I'll leave the old panel installed, even though it is a fire/electrocution hazard, because you are going to make me rip the house apart to move it"?
 
Re: close closet

Ryan,

Maybe things are different here on the east coast where there are plenty of old homes and remodeling is abundant. I'm sure there are things in your area that I have never ran into and I might be inclined to let it slide.
I do run into this a lot and have always insisted that they are re-located. Never had any complaints because it has always been enforced prior to me.
It usually takes a junction box and an LB to get the panel move to the room on the back or side of the closet. I must say it adds little to the cost and a lot to the safety of the home.
 
Re: close closet

Dave, just remember that the most effective inspector is an employed inspector.

Contractors have to choose their battles with inspectors, and inspectors have to choose their battles with contractors. Some things are worth fighting for, some are not.
 
Re: close closet

Ryan,
the most effective inspector is an employed inspector.
Click to expand...
I had no idea that your area is that political.
I could understand if it were a "grey area" of the code but "in the vicinity of easily ignitible material, such as in clothes closets." seems fairly clear to me and the rest of the building dept. where I am employed.
 
Re: close closet

for what its worth, this became a point of debate at one of our recent state inspectors meetings. The question arose concern panels in "closets" which were essentially "big enough to hold a dance in". The decision was that the term "in vicinity of easily ignitable material" was to be used as the key. If the panel area was petitioned off from the other "closet" area, allowing work space per Art 110, the it could be installed.
Thats how its handled here.
 
Re: close closet

"for what its worth, this became a point of debate at one of our recent state inspectors meetings. The question arose concern panels in "closets" which were essentially "big enough to hold a dance in". The decision was that the term "in vicinity of easily ignitable material" was to be used as the key. If the panel area was petitioned off from the other "closet" area, allowing work space per Art 110, the it could be installed.
Thats how its handled here. "
And just how do we justify changing the words of nec this far ? :confused:
 
Re: close closet

If an inspector is to loose his job because of following the code and politics get in the way, the job is not worth having to start with.

As far as back here on the east coast, this would not be so political, as a closet is a closet, and most building departments around here would have no problem with the relocation of this panel.
I have noticed a slow change occuring lately in our area with the building officials. More by the book, and they are becoming better educated, as NYS has them in class at least 24 hours a year.
 
Re: close closet

Originally posted by augie47:
The question arose concern panels in "closets" which were essentially "big enough to hold a dance in"...
If the panel area was petitioned off from the other "closet" area, allowing work space per Art 110, the it could be installed. Thats how its handled here.
Click to expand...
I can't argue with that :cool:
 
Re: close closet

I'm not trying to get into the politics of inspecting, I am just saying that being hard-nosed, without considering each individual installation, can be a bad way to go about inspecting.

Anyone can read a code book and enforce every rule to the letter, but I really think that is a poor way of doing the job. Again, there are some things that are worth fighting for, and there some that are not.
 
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