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jjboods

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I am very disappointed that my thread was closed. I'm surprised that any professional would allow someone to do something incorrectly and risk injury rather than offering advice. I know what your response will be...if I want to reduce the risk, I should hire a professional. If I was required to hire a professional, then homeowners would not be allowed to do work on their own homes. My question about the ladders and diving board is very simple. I view this as a response driven by greed for wanting to force homeowners to hire contractors.

I'm sure I can find my answers elsewhere.
 
Just my two bits ...

There are legal liability issues when it comes to telling someone how to do something they aren't qualified to do.

There's also the "I've done it more than once, that makes me an expert" issues. I work with people -- volunteers like myself -- who've wired an outlet and now want to wire an entire house. They mean well, but then they completely mess things up. Other people -- either more highly skilled volunteers or professional electricians then have to come behind them and fix thiings. I've fixed a lot of bad wiring in my life.

I'm not suggesting you do this, but if you'd like to learn, connect with your local Habitat for Humanity or similar organization. After some time as an electrical volunteer you'll either learn how to do what you're asking about, or you'll learn that electical wiring is not a hobby. One of my father's best friends when I was a teenager was a professional electrician. He was the electrical subcontractor my parents had used for several years and I was supposed to apprentice to him one summer or other. He was electrocuted on the job and died. He left a wife and two daughters, as I recall.
 
The person that owns and pays for this forum has requested that the site be for electrical professionals only, mostly due to liability issues. You are correct, there are many DIY sights out there, but this is not one of them. In most areas of the country a homeowner would be prohibited from doing the work that you are proposing unless they have passed an examination that supports their ability to complete the job safely. A person that was qualified to perform the work would know the answers to these questions. By answering these questions we open ourselves up to the liability that occurs from the questions that you did not know to ask. There are very few situations that human beings willingly put themselves more electrically dangerous than a swimming pool, it is no place for guessing.
 
jjboods said:
I am very disappointed that my thread was closed. I'm surprised that any professional would allow someone to do something incorrectly and risk injury rather than offering advice.
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It is not me, and it is not any other member of this forum, who would be ?ALLOWING YOU? to do something incorrectly. What you do is your own responsibility. If you install something incorrectly and if it causes someone to be hurt, then you don?t get to say that it?s our fault for not helping you. It would be your fault for doing it incorrectly.

The point here is that we cannot answer for you the thousand other questions that you did not ask and that you did not even know you needed to ask.

jjboods said:
I'm sure I can find my answers elsewhere.
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I am also sure that you can. But where are you going to find those other questions that you do not yet know that you also need to ask?
 
jjboods said:
I am very disappointed that my thread was closed. I'm surprised that any professional would allow someone to do something incorrectly and risk injury rather than offering advice. I know what your response will be...if I want to reduce the risk, I should hire a professional. If I was required to hire a professional, then homeowners would not be allowed to do work on their own homes. My question about the ladders and diving board is very simple. I view this as a response driven by greed for wanting to force homeowners to hire contractors.

I'm sure I can find my answers elsewhere.
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These people here fear everything. Always worried that someone will sue them so you will never find your answer, but I see that you are in sales so do you work in the electrical field some way by selling electrical supplies? You are right when you say you are not rquired to hire a professional as some of these "professionals" are far from it. There is nothing wrong with doing your own work because you could do just as good of a job as they could. I sure you would get the permits and at some point have an inspector out to take a look. Good luck with your project and I hope you do all the work yourself and do it right. Bonding is required for the ladder and diving board. #8 min
 
Pipemaster - Just because a job is inspected doesn`t mean that it is done right !!!! Just means that spacing,physical damage and asst. other items meet the applicable code.It takes an experienced person to actually do the work and make it work.I for one agree that this forum should be exclusive to those in the electrical field and not a DIY person.Just because a person can build a stud wall doesn`t mean that they can install proper wiring in that wall.

Here there is an actual shortage of experienced electricians.People are hired and wire home but when the end comes the house HUMMMMMMMSSSS.
I can`t tell you how many double or triple fed circuits I have found.Because I only have 10 fingers and 10 toes to count with :)Not trying to put down the OP but if I needed brain surgery I`d go to a brain surgeon,If I needed a addition built I`d hire a contractor.If I wanted a pool since electricity and water get so well along with each other,I`d hire a licensed and qualified individual to install what is needed.

As far as the legal ramifications .Just look at McDonalds that sold that women a cup of coffee.She was stupid enough to spill it in her lap but the company had to pay out for her stupidity.Friviolous law suit inundate our courts every day and I for one would like to see as they have in England LOSER pays the bill for legal fees.
 
pipemaster said:
These people here fear everything. Always worried that someone will sue them so you will never find your answer
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Wrong again PM, Mike Holt says "No DIY". It's his nickel for the web site. We do it his way or pick our toys and play someplace else.
 
Pipemaster,
If you are a contractor and are not concerned about being sued, you are either very good at what you do, very naive, or just don't care. If you are a contractor in a courtroom you are asumed to be a criminal. I was called as a witness in a trial once, and even then was treated like a crminal, and I was just a witness. Sure, there are some "professionals" that give the trade a bad name, and there are some DIY's that do excellent work, but in each case they are the exception and not the rule. I proctor the exam for DIY's that wish to do their own work in our area. The average score on a multiple choice test is about 40%. Keep in mind you should be able to score a 25% by guessing and not even looking at the questions. One of the questions is what color insulation is used on the grounded conductor? One of the choices is white or gray, and another choice is green. About 75% of the DIY's taking the test choose green. How can you possibly do acceptable work when you don't know the difference between a grounding and grounded conductor?
Let the DIY's go somewhere else for advice, there are plenty of people that think they are experts that will be glad to give them bad information. Many of them would ignore good code-based advice because it may add a few dollar's to the cost of the job.
I enjoy working on my own vehicles and back in the day, I was an ASE Certified mechanic. I know what I can do, and what I can't or shouldn't attempt. If I attempted a job that was beyond my ability, I don't think I would expect a profesional mechanic to tell me how to resolve the issue for free. If you are expert enough to do your own electrical work, you should be expert enough to refer to the code for basic informatioon.
 
I am always amazed how someone will blame so one else for them not doing it right.

Remember electricity doesn't kill, operator error does.
 
I can`t tell you how many double or triple fed circuits I have found.Because I only have 10 fingers and 10 toes to count with
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Use binary. Then you could count to over a million. :D
 
muskiedog said:
I am always amazed how someone will blame so one else for them not doing it right.

Remember electricity doesn't kill, operator error does.
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Muskiedog has it right. Listen up guys. There is no crime in answering a question. If you feel that this person(s) are completely unable to perform the task at hand then lock the thread I see no harm in providing a simple answer. I do not hold a gun to their head and force them to do the work as I said. And as far as inspections go if the work was no done correctly the inspector would be the fall guy behind the person who installed it what have you done in your time as an electrician that you are sued so much. Maybe you cut to many corners I do not so I don't fear being sued.
 
pipemaster said:
d I see no harm in providing a simple answer.
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It's not up to you.

It's up to the person paying the bills.

There is always more room on the net for you to start your own Forum and than it will be up to you.
 
Pipemaster who says that since it was inspected that it WILL WORK .Does an inspector check every joint/connection on a job they inspect ???? I think not !!!! That falls on the EC under Warranty.....But as said this forum is for PEOPLE in the ELECTRICAL field not a DIY person.They can go to www.how stuff works and find out what they need or want to know.This is an NEC forum and not a DIY forum if the man putting up the $$$ for this site wanted it to be a DIY forum then there would be a DIY area to go to.But there is not and it has been for years this way no DIY advice for any reason whatsoever.

So if you like open a DIY website and have to deal with the aftermath of giving electrical advice to joe shmow who burns his house down saying well pipemaster told me to do it this way !!!!!!
 
jjboods said:
I am very disappointed that my thread was closed. I'm surprised that any professional would allow someone to do something incorrectly and risk injury rather than offering advice. I know what your response will be...if I want to reduce the risk, I should hire a professional. If I was required to hire a professional, then homeowners would not be allowed to do work on their own homes. My question about the ladders and diving board is very simple. I view this as a response driven by greed for wanting to force homeowners to hire contractors.

I'm sure I can find my answers elsewhere.
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JJ,

You're talking about water, electricity and chlorine. A mix of which has the possibility of being extremely dangerous if not done correctly. Pools are typically considered a specialty in the trade. I've been in the trade for almost 15 years. I would not even consider wiring up a pool of my own. I would hire it out to someone in the know. There is no way I would put my family's life on the line in order to save a buck. Not when it comes to this.

DIY plumbing??? Yeah, because if I mess that up my house gets wet and I get hit in the wallet for repairs. DIY electrical??? Things burn up and/or people get hurt/killed. Not something that's worth it in my book.

If you choose to continue on with your project, I suggest you have someone who knows pool wiring to stop by and check everything out. At the very least, for your family's sake.

Goodluck
 
I'm surprised that some of us here would want to help this DIYer. Most of us here are here to help, but not someone who is wiring a pool. Surely the consequences of incorrectly wiring a pool can be deadly. He isn't asking if the ground goes up or down on a receptacle, he is asking for help wiring something that is inherently dangerous to begin with. If someone still feels the need to help this guy then there are ways that they can communicate with him outside of this open forum.
 
Pool wiring requires some thought, and an understanding of the complicated and poorly worded requirements put forth in the code for such structures. it is not for the amateur.

That said, I realize a lot of amateurs will still go ahead and do it themselves to try and save a few bucks. Because of the draconian laws in many areas regarding permitting and inspections, very few DIYers will get permits or an inspection if there is any way to avoid them.

I also know that even getting a real EC will not guarantee a pool installation is done correctly. It is a specialty that is best handled by someone who does them a lot. But just doing a lot of them does not mean they were done right. A HO does not have a lot of options open to him because he has no way to judge an EC that he might hire to do the job.
 
allenwayne said:
Pipemaster who says that since it was inspected that it WILL WORK .Does an inspector check every joint/connection on a job they inspect ???? I think not !!!!
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I say they do! They are professionals who are tasked at performing these duties. There is no way that you can wire something 100% wrong and still comply 100% with the code. If this is the case in the area where you work I shutter to think what has been approved in your town. Sounds like your town is VERY dangerous!
 
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pipemaster said:
I say they do! They are professionals who are tasked at performing these duties. There is noway that you can wire something 100% wrong and still comply 100% with the code. If this is the case in the area where you work I shutter to think what has been approved in your town. Sounds like your town is VERY dangerous!
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You either misread what allenwayne wrote, or you are purposely trying to twist it to fit your skewed logic.
 
paul said:
You either misread what allenwayne wrote, or you are purposely trying to twist it to fit your skewed logic.
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No. It is very clear, you are trying to "twist" and "fit it into your skewed logic"
 
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