Closet storage space

[kec]

Maybe with the increasing use of LED fixtures, it could be the time for the CMP to look into making a code change for all cloth closets to only allow enclosed LED fixtures.
For example: the new wafer downlight. No way can this fixture shatter and cause a fire onto clothing. Gives out alot of light, energy efficient, and you can put them wherever you want.

 

[retirede]

I am not going to argue this.. I hope some day you get to do one and I would love to know what the inspector says.

Yes, you do have a part of your living in the bathroom. You have sanitation which is one of the def. of dwelling unit. A kitchen meets the other as you don't sleep in there but you do cook.

I agree the definition is not great but I cannot believe you really don't consider this a closet.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. But I think there is room for debate. The dressing room in our home is 15' X 20' and has an area for storing clothes, washer/dryer hookups, and a vanity with lavatory sink. I don't think it is correct to call that a closet. We've even setup a portable crib in there and had our grandbabies sleep in it!
The bedroom in my apartment in college had a rod on one wall where I hung my clothes. That doesn't make it a closet.

And to be fair, I'm an Engineer so I'll never have to wire anything or face an inspection. I probably shouldn't have posted in this thread.
I was only trying to add to the conversation.

 

[kwired]

I'm not trying to be argumentative. But I think there is room for debate. The dressing room in our home is 15' X 20' and has an area for storing clothes, washer/dryer hookups, and a vanity with lavatory sink. I don't think it is correct to call that a closet. We've even setup a portable crib in there and had our grandbabies sleep in it!
The bedroom in my apartment in college had a rod on one wall where I hung my clothes. That doesn't make it a closet.

And to be fair, I'm an Engineer so I'll never have to wire anything or face an inspection. I probably shouldn't have posted in this thread.
I was only trying to add to the conversation.

Definitely.

It is hard to write code that covers every possibility.

I'd guess the main intention when they wrote most the clothes closet rules was for the somewhat typical closet that has shelving in a place where it is easy to stack items that often are combustible up to or close to the ceiling. Any luminaire above or close to that area has potential to start fire unless of a design that provides some separation from heat producing components or a design that doesn't produce any significant heat.

There are other storage spaces (garages, basements, attics or portions of them) that aren't really much different yet the fact they are not "clothes closets" open lamp luminaires are just fine.

 

[retirede]

I'd guess the main intention when they wrote most the clothes closet rules was for the somewhat typical closet that has shelving in a place where it is easy to stack items that often are combustible up to or close to the ceiling. Any luminaire above or close to that area has potential to start fire unless of a design that provides some separation from heat producing components or a design that doesn't produce any significant heat.

Correct - I guess my main point is that these "dressing room" sized closets are so large that it's almost impossible to get stored material close enough to a lamp to be a problem. Much like any other room of similar size.

 

[mwm1752]

Here is a good example

I would say the drawers a storage space, The shelves are storage space & the rods are storage space. The NEC does not address a countertop and does nor designate the countertop footprint be bound to the ceiling like a shelf - the closet rod space extends 12" past the shelving but does not continue to the ceiling. So we do respectfully disagree

 

[mwm1752]

Must be a lot of small people in your area if they only have 10" ceilings

real small lol Oops 10'

 

[kwired]

I would say the drawers a storage space, The shelves are storage space & the rods are storage space. The NEC does not address a countertop and does nor designate the countertop footprint be bound to the ceiling like a shelf - the closet rod space extends 12" past the shelving but does not continue to the ceiling. So we do respectfully disagree

But is the whole room a "clothes closet"?

Not only do we have to pay attention to "storage space" and luminaire placement in relation to that storate space, but say owner wants some fancy chandelier over that island - if this is a clothes closet anything with open lamps is likely not allowed.

 

[retirede]

But is the whole room a "clothes closet"?

Not only do we have to pay attention to "storage space" and luminaire placement in relation to that storate space, but say owner wants some fancy chandelier over that island - if this is a clothes closet anything with open lamps is likely not allowed.

I think the bottom line is that the rooms where clothes are stored have evolved beyond the NEC definition of a closet.

Someone smarter and/or with more patience than me could come up with a better way to codify the intent of this section.

 

[kwired]

I think the bottom line is that the rooms where clothes are stored have evolved beyond the NEC definition of a closet.

Someone smarter and/or with more patience than me could come up with a better way to codify the intent of this section.

That is a different way of saying it is difficult to write code that covers every possibility, but yes things happen that go beyond original intentions when code was written and code doesn't always get re-written unless it is something that becomes common practice. This type of "closet" is probably very small percentage of all that is out there.

 

[mwm1752]

But is the whole room a "clothes closet"?

Not only do we have to pay attention to "storage space" and luminaire placement in relation to that storate space, but say owner wants some fancy chandelier over that island - if this is a clothes closet anything with open lamps is likely not allowed.

I agree the point I am making is for location of fixtures that are allowed in a clothes closet -- I guess Denis & I agree then

 

[kwired]

I agree the point I am making is for location of fixtures that are allowed in a clothes closet -- I guess Denis & I agree then

I also agree that over the Island shouldn't be considered the storage space, but at same time this situation IMO likely isn't what was on the minds of CMP whenever they first made these rules and defined the storage spaces in these closets.

A laundry room may even have some similar storage to a typical clothes closet, yet many won't look very hard at luminaires used in those areas. Many times what is selected for luminaires will comply anyway if you did assign storage space in same manner.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't see how anyone can take sections of that room and call it closet and other sections not. It is a room and it clearly has closet space. Now should the code allow open bulb fixtures in an area that is x' from a shelf? Maybe. Write a proposal and see.

I am so full of it-- I said I was done with this argument and here I am

 

[kwired]

I don't see how anyone can take sections of that room and call it closet and other sections not. It is a room and it clearly has closet space. Now should the code allow open bulb fixtures in an area that is x' from a shelf? Maybe. Write a proposal and see.

I am so full of it-- I said I was done with this argument and here I am

I have never had to install luminaires in such a room - don't care if they change code or not at this point.

But then earlier I mentioned that a clothing store is nothing but a huge clothes closet, and how many track lighting units and other open lamp luminaires have been in those places for years? Now more of them are changing to LED's and even if not approved for closet use - probably are less risk than older technology.