cloth wiring

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scottakins7204

New User
Location
Tampa FL
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I have a customer who is looking for something in writing for her insurance company about cloth wiring. We don't have any local ordinance about it and its not listed in the NEC. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction. I would appreciate that. Have a nice day everyone.
 
Its just NM cable with a different sheath than is used today. Also, just rated 60 deg, where the newer NM-B is rated 90 deg. It's usually not a problem with the exceptions of lighting where they used too high of a wattage bulb. Not much of a problem today with all the LED bulbs. Another possible problem is if is has been handled enough that the sheathing falls off due to age.

I'm sure I missed something so others may add to this.
 
scottakins7204 said:
looking for something in writing for her insurance company about cloth wiring.
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NEC Annex F: Part II describes 3rd party testing, since most contractors will only quote remodel wiring, wont carry Meggers, or Hi-Pot testers, much less test during high humidity.

IMHO Insurance may accept any method that transfers liability to other parties. Qualified persons may warranty NEC 550.17 Testing, or home owner may submit a GL certificate of additionally insured from any contractor warranty.
 
Cloth wiring is a made up term that Florida insurance companies love to see on a 4 point inspection. In my experience they don't even know what the definition of cloth wiring is. Some old NM cable without a PVC jacket still has thermoplastic insulation.

We need to see some photos of the cables in question.
 
The biggest issues, as noted, was the lack of a ground, or an undersized ground, and the temperature rating at light fixtures. The undersized ground isn't that big of a deal as long as it has continuity. I noticed that the small size made it easier to break. But electrically speaking, it functions fine if it is intact. The temp rating isn't much a problem anymore because LED lights are much cooler now. The real problem is the cooked wiring above the existing overlamped incandescents. Aside from ripping it out and replacing it, you can heat shrink it to restore the insulation and pigtail on some THHN as a sidestep.
 
My city inspector taught me this term 'grandfathered in' to use with insurance,
For example when I do a old house service panel upgrade if there is old ungrounded branch circuits the receptacles in the house are 'grandfathered in' if they are either 2-prong, 3-prong grounded, or GFCI protected,
if they have ungrounded 3-prong that is not 'grandfathered' so its a building violation and or insurance violation.
Oddly they don't care about TR or WR.
Funny thing is a GFCI tester wont trip a GFCI on a old two wire.
 
No, a GFCI analyzer will not trip the device if it's connected to only a grounded and ungrounded conductor. The on board test button will. The device will still function properly.
 
Rick 0920 said:
It should trip. Why would they require replacements of non-grounding type receptacles with new grounding type receptacles only if they are GFCI protected.
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How would a plug in tester trip the GFCI? The plug in tester puts a small load between the hot and the EGC...no equipment grounding conductor no trip. Also, even though you are installing grounding type receptacles downstream of a GFCI on a circuit that does not have an EGC, the code prohibits running an equipment grounding conductor to those receptacles.

That being said there a lots of ground fault paths that people can come into contact with, and the GFCI provides the protection in those cases without an EGC..
 
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