coach light problem

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PlnOldRick

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so here in florida we tend to mostly install coach lights outside of the garage using a metal pancake box tapcon'd or anchor'd to the block wall. obviously this box is required to be bonded to the eguipment grounding conductor. here in lay my dilema. because of our wonderfull stucco guys i always leave the wire stubbed out of the pancake with the sheathing on untill trim out time to protect the wires from thier tools of doom. today, for the first time ever i failed an inspection because the egc wasnt bonded to the box at rough inspection.

at first i thought, yeah they finally got me. but then i started to think, is this really a violation. firstly i am protecting the conductors as required by 334.15 (B) but then i started to read into 250.148 a little deeper. here what is really striking me is the phrase " where circuit conductors are spliced within a box, or terminated on equipment within or supported by a box"

now please do correct me if my thought process is trying to make something from nothing here but since this romex isnt terminated or spliced anywhere yet does it need to be bonded right now at rough time. im not saying ever, just right now?

Thanks
Rick
 
Re: coach light problem

I don't see how it can be required at the rough in. We usually have a rough in inspection without the splices being made, just the cables stubbed into the boxes. If you choose to make the connection when the final fixture is installed that should not be a problem. As long as it's done when the installation is complete it will be code compliant.
 
Re: coach light problem

see 250.4 (A)(5) would be great in this situation if any of the wires entered the panel. in hillsbourough county we are required to terminate all of the neutrals and grounds to thier respective bars in the panel at rough in stage. in that case then yes i would believe it would be absolutly required to bond those coach light pancakes.

BUT..
here in manatee county we are nt required to terminate any wires in the panel at rough in. most of the time we wrap them in a bundle tie them up and leave it for trimout to "make up" the panel. which leads me to this point...there is no possibility of the circuit becoming energized unless unauthorized personal tampers with it. would that still mean the 250.4 (a)(5) is applicable?

just let it be known i am in no way shape or form trying to get out of bonding the box's. i am trying to save myself the headache of crawling through an attic at trim to replace a wire that was hacked to pieces from a stucco guy.
 
Re: coach light problem

You could splice the boxes and leave a foot of slack in the wall (as you're allowed to do by 334.30) and if the wire gets hacked up, pull the slack in and re-splice.

Or you could cover the boxes with duct tape. That way, the wire doesn't get hacked, and the box doesn't get filled with stucco.
 
Re: coach light problem

We require all metal boxes including the ones for outside lighting or receptalces to be cut-in and grounded (bonded) on the rough. If you were to install non-metallic boxes, you would not have to cut them in. With the fixture installed on the final inspection, it is not possible to see if proper grounding (bonding) of the box has been performed. Unless you want to be onsite during the inspection and take each light off the box so we can see it then. My advice is to cover the boxes with duct tape or other means to prevent the entrance of stucco or other decorative finishs.

At the same time, we don't require the panels to be made up on trim, because that is something we will be looking at on the final anyway. So either way, we will see how all terminations are done.
 
Re: coach light problem

We require all metal boxes including the ones for outside lighting or receptalces to be cut-in and grounded (bonded) on the rough.
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You may require it, but where is it written that this is an NEC requirement?
 
Re: coach light problem

I think that depends on the local AHJ's and their decision as to what they want in rough in. For WA state, we have to have grounds made up during the rough in. If you're using the EMT as a ground, they want to see ground screws or pigtails installed in each box. Residential, you only need make up the grounds prior to rough in. Either way, then want to see that you have in place a grounding path that's complete, or you will fail.
 
Re: coach light problem

Of course the NEC doesn't tell us when the bonding must be done. But I still have to see it at some point. For the benefit of both the inspection and the installer, its best to be performed on the rough, otherwise the installer is going to have the burden of providing visual access of the connection at the final. To me, the choice is clear.

Its not my problem if the contractor has issues with another trade. That is between the contractor and the builder to get that issue settled.

I hear more compliants and excusess in a day than a big city bartender. The bottom line is that our decisions as inspectors cannot make every contractor happy all the time. In most cases a happy medium will be established. In others, the contractor may just have to find another way of doing things.
 
Re: coach light problem

Same state (Florida) we are required to make up pigtails and all grounds hooked up panels made up and then call for rough-in inspection. Diffferent cites different ahjs but they all down here req totally made up boxes/panels Broward-Dade counties :cool:

[ October 19, 2005, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: straps ]
 
Re: coach light problem

i can totally understand both sides of the aisle here. i can also add that inspectors here are probably the most overworked i have seen. the three county guys in sarasota often have 50-60 inspections a day and thier coverage area is quite large. so i could deffinatly see where wanting to know that the box's are bonded at rough would be expediating.

as a side note i never planned on making this an issue with the inspector. i basically wanted to get peoples takes on it since there seemed to be no clear description or shall i say the wording is fuzzy and/or vague. something as miniscule as this isnt really important to me so from now on im just going to duct tape them.....not like its a huge pain to do.

thanks everyone
 
Re: coach light problem

For WA state, we have to have grounds made up during the rough in. If you're using the EMT as a ground, they want to see ground screws or pigtails installed in each box.
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Around here we don't even use grounding screws or pigtails with EMT or AC cable. We always use self-grounding receptacles unless EGC or pigtails are required in the spec.
 
Re: coach light problem

Originally posted by bphgravity:
For the benefit of both the inspection and the installer, its best to be performed on the rough, otherwise the installer is going to have the burden of providing visual access of the connection at the final. To me, the choice is clear.
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I'm sorry, but I disagree. My job is to do the work. Your job is to inspect it. It strikes me as a free ride for the inspector to require the electrician to carry your tools. :)

I don't like stucco guys, weather or anything else corroding or destroying my wires. Therefore, the sheathing stays on outdoor outlets until trim. It's not foolproof, but it deters the elements for the most part.

Generally, these items can be swiftly brought down with one or two tools to verify bonding. At the same time, you can verify the wirenuts aren't falling off, which seems to be in vogue this season. :D :D

[ October 19, 2005, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: coach light problem

Rick I have been involved in new construction in Florida for many years and about 5 years ago this bacame an issue here.Actually there were two situations rolled up in one insp.it snowballed from there.
# 1 a standard pancake can only have 1 2 wire cable to it RE : cu in cap.Ok so we set a j box in garage ceiling near the front and ran sw leg to there and individual runs to each pancake box if cells were solid other wise the j box went out the door and cut ins were used.
# 2 Same issue as you have box not grounded.Our guys were instructed to leave the nm about 18 in out of the box so our beloved stucco crew couldn`t fill the box till it was filled and texture over it so pretty that it was never seen until the trim guy beat 1/2 the stucco band aparty to uncover our box ;)
 
Re: coach light problem

110.11.......now thats a nice twist. but now would that also mean i would need to use an approved corrosion resistant material as per 300.6

anyways
so from reading the replies i now feel that im not quite as crazy as i originally imagined.

but in the end i think its a "live to fight another day" situation. i have another bigger argument i am in right now with an inspector requiring me to run a #2 to a ground rod grounding electrode and supplemental ground rod for the gec on a 400A service.....

now that seems more worthy with the price of copper probably going up 40$ a pound since 10 minutes ago.
 
Re: coach light problem

Welcome to the sunny state of Florida where the only constant thing in this trade is change.I pretty much got use to it and just walk in the shop in the morning and say "WHAT ARE THE RULES
TODAY" :D
 
Re: coach light problem

I completely understand your points George. There are several things that are my responsibility to open and inspect such as panelboards and other various enclosures and access panels. We draw the line at certain "finsished" components that are not intended to be removed for inspection. Light fixtures would be one of those items. I really don't want the responsibility of the task with the possibility of damage or scratching or whatever.

And again I do feel that this is an issue between the contractor and the stucco guys, not the contractor and the inspector. :eek:

I carry a ladder, hand tools, an extending mirror, and the code book. :cool:
 
Re: coach light problem

I carry a ladder, hand tools, an extending mirror, and the code book.
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Bryan, I'm impressed. Around here an inspection lasts about 5 minutes. It would take you longer to get out your tools then it would for an inspection to be finished around here. I've had an inspector tell me that a good inspection is when the song playing on the radio in his car when he arrives is still on when he leaves.
 
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