code book
- Thread starter frank
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luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: code book
why??
why??
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: code book
I think one should own a code book before they ask a question regarding it.
I think one should own a code book before they ask a question regarding it.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: code book
Luke, you asked the question, "Why?" Do you own a Code book? (we need more Graemlins)
Luke, you asked the question, "Why?" Do you own a Code book?
(we need more Graemlins)
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: code book
Correct me if I am wrong. But I think the purpose of this forum is to provide a means for us to help each other. More to the point, I do not think we are here to show off our own knowledge and experience, nor to highlight the deficiencies of those with lesser knowledge or experience.
The suggested ?Do you have a code book? comes across to me as being unkind, if not downright unfriendly. It leaves me with the impression that the next question (assuming the person does own a code book) is going to be, ?Well, don?t you know how to read it?? I may have misunderstood the intention of the suggestion, but I am reporting how it makes me feel.
I think it is better to assume (until the contrary becomes obvious) that a person has made an unsuccessful effort to solve the problem independently, before posting a question on this forum.
[ June 20, 2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
Correct me if I am wrong. But I think the purpose of this forum is to provide a means for us to help each other. More to the point, I do not think we are here to show off our own knowledge and experience, nor to highlight the deficiencies of those with lesser knowledge or experience.
The suggested ?Do you have a code book? comes across to me as being unkind, if not downright unfriendly. It leaves me with the impression that the next question (assuming the person does own a code book) is going to be, ?Well, don?t you know how to read it?? I may have misunderstood the intention of the suggestion, but I am reporting how it makes me feel.
I think it is better to assume (until the contrary becomes obvious) that a person has made an unsuccessful effort to solve the problem independently, before posting a question on this forum.
[ June 20, 2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
Re: code book
Very good, Charlie B. There is a few individuals, on other forums, who only want questions that can be answered with numbers.
The number of members show the lack of interest.
If all the members, signed into this forum, made posts, I would probably have less than a hundred.
There is so much in the NEC that has lost its original intent, and can't be explained by even the self appointed experts.
Case in point...I have wondered, for 50 years, why there was ever a fused neutral. Also what is a ground connecting pipe plug. I learned the answers last week.
No one can answer the 25 ohm origin or reason. How about a 4 and 11/16th box, who would use such a wierd dimension?.
Very good, Charlie B. There is a few individuals, on other forums, who only want questions that can be answered with numbers.
The number of members show the lack of interest.
If all the members, signed into this forum, made posts, I would probably have less than a hundred.
There is so much in the NEC that has lost its original intent, and can't be explained by even the self appointed experts.
Case in point...I have wondered, for 50 years, why there was ever a fused neutral. Also what is a ground connecting pipe plug. I learned the answers last week.
No one can answer the 25 ohm origin or reason. How about a 4 and 11/16th box, who would use such a wierd dimension?.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: code book
Brian and Frank, I am a recognized expert on the NEC. A lot of people call me an expert and I accept that with my own definition. My definition of an expert is someone who has a good understanding of how much they don't know about a particular subject. Trust me, there is a lot I don't know about the Code and I suspect (know) I will die without a complete knowledge of the Code.
This forum has reinforced the fact that there is a lot that I don't know and a few things that I don't have a clue about. I would hate to require someone to have a copy of the NESC before I responded about conductor clearance from . . . or "why did the power company do . . . ?" Why then is it required for person to have a Code before answering all questions?
For what it is worth, I do agree that Joe Homeowner should be strongly encouraged to obtain the services of an electrical professional instead of becoming a dead do it yourselfer. I just don't believe we should run rough shod over them unless it is obvious that they are getting into trouble.
[ June 20, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: charlie ]
Brian and Frank, I am a recognized expert on the NEC. A lot of people call me an expert and I accept that with my own definition. My definition of an expert is someone who has a good understanding of how much they don't know about a particular subject. Trust me, there is a lot I don't know about the Code and I suspect (know) I will die without a complete knowledge of the Code.
This forum has reinforced the fact that there is a lot that I don't know and a few things that I don't have a clue about. I would hate to require someone to have a copy of the NESC before I responded about conductor clearance from . . . or "why did the power company do . . . ?" Why then is it required for person to have a Code before answering all questions?
For what it is worth, I do agree that Joe Homeowner should be strongly encouraged to obtain the services of an electrical professional instead of becoming a dead do it yourselfer. I just don't believe we should run rough shod over them unless it is obvious that they are getting into trouble.
[ June 20, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: charlie ]
rick5280
Senior Member
Re: code book
I too like the "Do you own a code book" statement, but for different reasons. Knowing which codebook is essential to answering most questions. I know each and every one of you have answered a question, sometime, with a code reference. What good is the reference if the person asking the question doesn't have a code book.
I know we are here to help everyone, but to answer a question with just a code reference may not help some people, unless they have access to the codebook you are referring from.
I realize alot of questions will be, and should be answered staightforword, and a code reference might not come into play. In this type of answer, of course one wouldn't need to know what book your using.
Rick Miell
I too like the "Do you own a code book" statement, but for different reasons. Knowing which codebook is essential to answering most questions. I know each and every one of you have answered a question, sometime, with a code reference. What good is the reference if the person asking the question doesn't have a code book.
I know we are here to help everyone, but to answer a question with just a code reference may not help some people, unless they have access to the codebook you are referring from.
I realize alot of questions will be, and should be answered staightforword, and a code reference might not come into play. In this type of answer, of course one wouldn't need to know what book your using.
Rick Miell
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: code book
Originally posted by charlie:
I just don't believe we should run rough shod over them unless it is obvious that they are getting into trouble.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: code book
Frank point well made. But we have many people posting who don't have code books, who are perhaps involved in a manufacturing process or product. I may encourage them to get a code book.
Now as to the DIYers you may be referring to, if they are asking questions as to cover and raceway fill, even with a code book what else may they miss.
The replies above esp the ones by Charlie B and Bennie are right on.
Frank point well made. But we have many people posting who don't have code books, who are perhaps involved in a manufacturing process or product. I may encourage them to get a code book.
Now as to the DIYers you may be referring to, if they are asking questions as to cover and raceway fill, even with a code book what else may they miss.
The replies above esp the ones by Charlie B and Bennie are right on.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: code book
Charlie,
though my collection of Codebooks is not very impressive, I do own some(1993 through 2002).
Todd.
Really, frank made the statement and I would like to know why.
To me, the question would make it seem like NFPA 70 ownership is a requirement for an answer.
It appears that most members/moderators can 'feel' when a question is being asked from a student doing homework, a person asking test questions, a homeowner looking for a qualified answer, or even someone with some sort of understanding as to what he/she is talking about.
But hey, I'm game. From now on let's start requiring proof of NFPA70 ownership before answering questions. :roll:
Truthfully, how many of us would really be offende by first being asked this without knowing the tone or warrent??
Model airplanes, internet forums, whittling, flogging a dead horse, could all be hobbies. Electricity should not be.
I just don't think that by the 'tone' of asking "do you own a codebook" comes across as friendly on an open public forum.
Asking "if you own a current version of NFPA 70, you could find the code in Article # ...." would seem to me more appropriate.
Charlie,
though my collection of Codebooks is not very impressive, I do own some(1993 through 2002).
Todd.
Really, frank made the statement and I would like to know why.
To me, the question would make it seem like NFPA 70 ownership is a requirement for an answer.
It appears that most members/moderators can 'feel' when a question is being asked from a student doing homework, a person asking test questions, a homeowner looking for a qualified answer, or even someone with some sort of understanding as to what he/she is talking about.
But hey, I'm game. From now on let's start requiring proof of NFPA70 ownership before answering questions. :roll:
Truthfully, how many of us would really be offende by first being asked this without knowing the tone or warrent??
Model airplanes, internet forums, whittling, flogging a dead horse, could all be hobbies. Electricity should not be.
I just don't think that by the 'tone' of asking "do you own a codebook" comes across as friendly on an open public forum.
Asking "if you own a current version of NFPA 70, you could find the code in Article # ...." would seem to me more appropriate.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: code book
Todd, you make a lot of sense and you can tell from my previous posts that I agree with you (I am not so sure that Luke fits you though. Most people are not really luke warm on much).
Bennie, sorry to call you an ex but I recognize you as an expert.
Todd, you make a lot of sense and you can tell from my previous posts that I agree with you (I am not so sure that Luke fits you though.
Most people are not really luke warm on much).Bennie, sorry to call you an ex but I recognize you as an expert.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: code book
I know that alot of you feel that homeowners shouldn't be trying to wire. even if it is there own house Indiana has a law that prevents a local unit of government from restricting a dys from doing work on there own home.
Look at (D)
IC 36-7-8-4
Establishment of minimum housing standards; ordinances
Sec. 3. (a) The legislative body of a county having a county department of buildings or joint city-county building department may, by ordinance, adopt building, heating, ventilating, air conditioning, electrical, plumbing , and sanitation standards for unincorporated areas of the county. These standards take effect only on the legislative body's receipt of written approval from the fire prevention and building safety commission.
(b) An ordinance adopted under this section must be based on occupancy, and it applies to:
(1) the construction, alteration, equipment, use, occupancy, location, and maintenance of buildings, structures, and appurtenances that are on land or over water and are:
(A) erected after the ordinance takes effect; and
(B) if expressly provided by the ordinance, existing when the ordinance takes effect;
(2) conversions of buildings and structures, or parts of them, from one occupancy classification to another; and
(3) the movement or demolition of buildings, structures, and equipment for the operation of buildings and structures.
(c) The rules of the fire prevention and building safety commission are the minimum standards upon which ordinances adopted under this section must be based.
(d) An ordinance adopted under this section does not apply to private homes that are built by individuals and used for their own occupancy
I know that alot of you feel that homeowners shouldn't be trying to wire. even if it is there own house Indiana has a law that prevents a local unit of government from restricting a dys from doing work on there own home.
Look at (D)
IC 36-7-8-4
Establishment of minimum housing standards; ordinances
Sec. 3. (a) The legislative body of a county having a county department of buildings or joint city-county building department may, by ordinance, adopt building, heating, ventilating, air conditioning, electrical, plumbing , and sanitation standards for unincorporated areas of the county. These standards take effect only on the legislative body's receipt of written approval from the fire prevention and building safety commission.
(b) An ordinance adopted under this section must be based on occupancy, and it applies to:
(1) the construction, alteration, equipment, use, occupancy, location, and maintenance of buildings, structures, and appurtenances that are on land or over water and are:
(A) erected after the ordinance takes effect; and
(B) if expressly provided by the ordinance, existing when the ordinance takes effect;
(2) conversions of buildings and structures, or parts of them, from one occupancy classification to another; and
(3) the movement or demolition of buildings, structures, and equipment for the operation of buildings and structures.
(c) The rules of the fire prevention and building safety commission are the minimum standards upon which ordinances adopted under this section must be based.
(d) An ordinance adopted under this section does not apply to private homes that are built by individuals and used for their own occupancy
Re: code book
I once WAS on the Electrical Board of a municipality.
The BOARD consisted of the Inspector, a Licensed Electrical Contractor ( of the municipality ) and a dis-interested citizen, all appointed by the mayor.
I was the new person. The others had been there for years.
What a surprise, the electrical contractor had never owned a CODE book.
I once WAS on the Electrical Board of a municipality.
The BOARD consisted of the Inspector, a Licensed Electrical Contractor ( of the municipality ) and a dis-interested citizen, all appointed by the mayor.
I was the new person. The others had been there for years.
What a surprise, the electrical contractor had never owned a CODE book.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: code book
Oh how I remember
and this electrical contractor is still there inspecting and doing contracting (kit)
Oh how I remember
and this electrical contractor is still there inspecting and doing contracting (kit)
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: code book
Just my opinion......To use code references is great,but there are so many people out there that can give code articles but can`t apply them to practicle usage,I know one guy that teaches a code class at night,he can cite one code after another off the top of his head.But he gets more red tags than anyone i know....................
Experience combined with knowledge is the key.
Allen
Just my opinion......To use code references is great,but there are so many people out there that can give code articles but can`t apply them to practicle usage,I know one guy that teaches a code class at night,he can cite one code after another off the top of his head.But he gets more red tags than anyone i know....................
Experience combined with knowledge is the key.
Allen
Re: code book
it mihght sound better i asked what edition is you code book. i can give a direct qoute from the code but if i dont give the excpition if their is one the the qoute may be useless or unsafe i will help ANYONE with a code quetion if i can but we all need a code book.
it mihght sound better i asked what edition is you code book. i can give a direct qoute from the code but if i dont give the excpition if their is one the the qoute may be useless or unsafe i will help ANYONE with a code quetion if i can but we all need a code book.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: code book
I have to discuss the post "what a surprise he didn't own a code book". In my experience as an inspector, I have found that, typically, the only tradespeople that own a code book are electricians.
I have to discuss the post "what a surprise he didn't own a code book". In my experience as an inspector, I have found that, typically, the only tradespeople that own a code book are electricians.
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