Code change on GFCI Protection for 250 volt 50 amp receptacles.

[Rsteenson]

My North Dakota inspector called me on (5) 50 amp 250 volt 1 phase welding outlet circuits that I installed in a weld shop recently on standard QO Circuit breakers. He referenced 210.8 B. Immediately after the GFI breakers were installed the welders were nuisance tripping the breakers and rightfully not happy with. My interpretation is that the voltage referenced in 210.8 B does not include a straight 250 volt rated outlet. I also have them installed in a "weld" shop, not a "garage" or "wet" location. Has anybody else ran into similar problems??? Id like to hear some opinions on this code change from people and hear some interpretations on this. Thanks!

 

[infinity]

Here's the 2017 code section. The closest thing I see in #8 which to me is not applicable to a welding shop. If the system (not the receptacle) has a neutral then it's less than 150 volts to ground.

210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All single-phase receptacles
rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and three-
phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less,
100 amperes or less installed in the following locations shall
have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Kitchens
(3) Rooftops
Exception: Receptacles on rooftops shall not be required to be readily
accessible other than from the rooftop.
(4) Outdoors
Exception No. 1 to (3) and (4): Receptacles that are not readily accessi‐
ble and are supplied by a branch circuit dedicated to electric snow-
melting, deicing, or pipeline and vessel heating equipment shall be
permitted to be installed in accordance with 426.28 or 427.22, as
applicable.
Exception No. 2 to (4): In industrial establishments only, where the
conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified
personnel are involved, an assured equipment grounding conductor
program as specified in 590.6(B)(3) shall be permitted for only those
receptacle outlets used to supply equipment that would create a greater
hazard if power is interrupted or having a design that is not compatible
with GFCI protection.
(5) Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m
(6 ft) from the top inside edge of the bowl of the sink
Exception No. 1 to (5): In industrial laboratories, receptacles used to
supply equipment where removal of power would introduce a greater
hazard shall be permitted to be installed without GFCI protection.
Exception No. 2 to (5): For receptacles located in patient bed locations
of general care (Category 2) or critical care (Category 1) spaces of health
care facilities other than those covered under 210.8(B)(1), GFCI protec‐
tion shall not be required.
(6) Indoor wet locations
(7) Locker rooms with associated showering facilities
(8) Garages, service bays, and similar areas other than vehi‐
cle exhibition halls and showrooms
(9) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
(10) Unfinished portions or areas of the basement not inten‐
ded as habitable rooms

 

[blkmagik21]

Here's the 2017 code section. The closest thing I see in #8 which to me is not applicable to a welding shop. If the system (not the receptacle) has a neutral then it's less than 150 volts to ground.

I’ve never had to put a gfci on 240 outlets like that here in Washington and we are on the 2017 code.

If he is going to say you need to gfci that then next it will be the range outlets have to be gfci protected.

Why stop there? How about we put an afci on those too.

I think the inspector in your instance has his head up his pooper.

 

[blkmagik21]

Besides if he does say it’s required for the reason of the outlet having a grounded conductor (neutral) then there is a spot in the gfci requirements if I remember right that gives an exception for equipment that is not compatible with a gfci.


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[infinity]

I’ve never had to put a gfci on 240 outlets like that here in Washington and we are on the 2017 code.

If he is going to say you need to gfci that then next it will be the range outlets have to be gfci protected.

Why stop there? How about we put an afci on those too.

I think the inspector in your instance has his head up his pooper.

The list in post #2 is pretty clear.

Besides if he does say it’s required for the reason of the outlet having a grounded conductor (neutral) then there is a spot in the gfci requirements if I remember right that gives an exception for equipment that is not compatible with a gfci.

What does that mean?

 

[Craigv]

It's a welding shop, but are they welding on/in vehicles? If there are doors large enough to drive a vehicle inside, even if they aren't specifically in that business this could be the inspector's concern. The space may qualify as a "garage".

 

[JFletcher]

Just as article 551.71 makes no mention of needing GFI protection for 50 amp RV receptacles, article 630 makes no mention of 50a welder receptacles needing GFCI protection, at least in the 2008 NEC. Chapter six installations modify or supplement previous chapters per 90.3. You may not need GFCI protection on the 50 amp circuits, check article 6:30 in the 2017 NEC to see what it says. As far as nuisance tripping, in the 08 NEC under 630.15, the fine point note, if your welder secondary is connected to a grounded object, you will create parallel paths and objectionable current, you will also trip any GFCI device protecting the primary.

I'm sure most welders know this, however with arc welders you put the clamp on the work, not on a grounded object. Point is to allow the electricity to return to the source, the secondary side of the welder transformer, and not to the primary side, which will more than likely cause nuisance trips.

Are all 5 welder receptacles on their own circuit breakers? If not, and they are trying to run two welders at once, it will not take much leakage at all to hit 6 milliamps and trip the breaker on ground fault.

So I guess the choices are one, you do not need GFCI protection, two, you do need GFCI protection and have to figure out if all welders are tripping, if one or more of them has defects causing ground fault trips. You may also want to check the owner's manual or installation manual, they may not be compatible with GFCI protection / manufacturer instructions. In that case, 110.3 b maybe your friend.

Edited to add... I did a precursory search on the internet for running welders on GFCI circuits. There are some conflicting reports... It seems you can run Mig/tig welders on GFCI just fine, arc welders perhaps not.

Member augie47 ask a very similar question on the same topic perhaps a week ago... Not sure if he had any luck in resolving his questions / issue... May want to send him a p.m. or maybe he will chime in on this thread

 

[Rsteenson]

Here's the 2017 code section. The closest thing I see in #8 which to me is not applicable to a welding shop. If the system (not the receptacle) has a neutral then it's less than 150 volts to ground.

So you think there is zero argument for getting around this on any 3 phase 208 volt receptacles even that do not have a neutral? Gosh, there are going to be alot of pissed off customers around the country who will be paying for all of these GFI breakers if that is the case. I suppose its only a matter of time before they hit the 480 volt as well.

 

[Rsteenson]

Just as article 551.71 makes no mention of needing GFI protection for 50 amp RV receptacles, article 630 makes no mention of 50a welder receptacles needing GFCI protection, at least in the 2008 NEC. Chapter six installations modify or supplement previous chapters per 90.3. You may not need GFCI protection on the 50 amp circuits, check article 6:30 in the 2017 NEC to see what it says. As far as nuisance tripping, in the 08 NEC under 630.15, the fine point note, if your welder secondary is connected to a grounded object, you will create parallel paths and objectionable current, you will also trip any GFCI device protecting the primary.

I'm sure most welders know this, however with arc welders you put the clamp on the work, not on a grounded object. Point is to allow the electricity to return to the source, the secondary side of the welder transformer, and not to the primary side, which will more than likely cause nuisance trips.

Are all 5 welder receptacles on their own circuit breakers? If not, and they are trying to run two welders at once, it will not take much leakage at all to hit 6 milliamps and trip the breaker on ground fault.

So I guess the choices are one, you do not need GFCI protection, two, you do need GFCI protection and have to figure out if all welders are tripping, if one or more of them has defects causing ground fault trips. You may also want to check the owner's manual or installation manual, they may not be compatible with GFCI protection / manufacturer instructions. In that case, 110.3 b maybe your friend.

Edited to add... I did a precursory search on the internet for running welders on GFCI circuits. There are some conflicting reports... It seems you can run Mig/tig welders on GFCI just fine, arc welders perhaps not.

Member augie47 ask a very similar question on the same topic perhaps a week ago... Not sure if he had any luck in resolving his questions / issue... May want to send him a p.m. or maybe he will chime in on this thread

Thanks, I will look him up. All of these welder receptacles are on dedicated breakers. In 2018 there is still not any requirement for Rv's or for welders.

 

[kwired]

So you think there is zero argument for getting around this on any 3 phase 208 volt receptacles even that do not have a neutral? Gosh, there are going to be alot of pissed off customers around the country who will be paying for all of these GFI breakers if that is the case. I suppose its only a matter of time before they hit the 480 volt as well.

You are just a little late to the party is all - it has already impacted many. Is it necessary - IDK. Makes one seriously consider hard wiring some things where possible though.

Thanks, I will look him up. All of these welder receptacles are on dedicated breakers. In 2018 there is still not any requirement for Rv's or for welders.

I started a thread not too long ago asking about RV's. Nothing in 551 mentions it, but at same time chapters 1-4 are the general rule unless 5-7 has something other to say. So for typical RV my thought based on what is written is that because it is 50 amp, 120 volts to ground, and outdoors - 210.8 requires GFCI protection. 551 doesn't say anything to relieve the general rule in 210 - so IMO it needs GFCI. Don't know it that was the intention, but IMO is what it presently says.

I brought it up because I wasn't finding any RV pedestals (though I didn't look just too hard) that had 50A GFCI installed in them.

 

[infinity]

So you think there is zero argument for getting around this on any 3 phase 208 volt receptacles even that do not have a neutral? Gosh, there are going to be alot of pissed off customers around the country who will be paying for all of these GFI breakers if that is the case. I suppose its only a matter of time before they hit the 480 volt as well.

Yes there is zero argument because the wording is specific "210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All single-phase receptacles
rated 150 volts to ground or less". If you test any of the 3Ø legs it will be 150 volts to ground or less. Note that it says to ground not to the neutral so you have no argument.

 

[Rsteenson]

It's a welding shop, but are they welding on/in vehicles? If there are doors large enough to drive a vehicle inside, even if they aren't specifically in that business this could be the inspector's concern. The space may qualify as a "garage".

Nope, its a millwright fab shop. So what about farm shops where people drive equipment in to the shop to work on it??? We live in farm shops where everybody has at least a couple of weld outlets in their shops. This code change is going to piss people off big time!

 

[Rsteenson]

You are just a little late to the party is all - it has already impacted many. Is it necessary - IDK. Makes one seriously consider hard wiring some things where possible though.



I started a thread not too long ago asking about RV's. Nothing in 551 mentions it, but at same time chapters 1-4 are the general rule unless 5-7 has something other to say. So for typical RV my thought based on what is written is that because it is 50 amp, 120 volts to ground, and outdoors - 210.8 requires GFCI protection. 551 doesn't say anything to relieve the general rule in 210 - so IMO it needs GFCI. Don't know it that was the intention, but IMO is what it presently says.

I brought it up because I wasn't finding any RV pedestals (though I didn't look just too hard) that had 50A GFCI installed in them.

I had a phone conversation today with the ND director of inspections. He let me slide on the welder outlets in this shop. He was agreeing with me that this one is going to cause lots of headaches for us. He also encouraged me (and all electricians) to act and send emails to the NEC code commission. I asked him if we needed to install GFCI protection on campsite 50 amp outlets and he said, "no".....its comical to me because they require a 120 volt GFI outlet wherever there is a 50 amp 125/250 outlet anyways! I think this is one stupid and confusing article that needs some attention before the next code cycle. We all know whats coming next.....480 volt. I cant begin to imagine how expensive all of these breakers are going to get.

 

[augie47]

On the bright side, if you need a 50 amp GF breaker in the future you know all you need to do is drive to a recently wired shop and look on the shelf under the "junk"

 

[kwired]

Looked up comments on this change.

Committee Statement:

The requirements in this section have been expanded to recognize the fact that the shock hazard is not limited to 15 and 20A 125 volt circuits.


UL 943C defines protective devices intended to provide protection of personnel in circuits that exceed 250 volts up to 600 volts. Listed devices that meet the requirements of UL 943C are now available on the market.


The proposed revision to exception 3 is not within the purview of Panel 2 and therefore has not been included as part of the first revision.

Looks like just because they make it they think we should use it, nothing in there about how badly it may be needed.
Primarily the same manufacturers that make AFCI's are involved, go figure.

 

[Rsteenson]

Looked up comments on this change.

Committee Statement:



Looks like just because they make it they think we should use it, nothing in there about how badly it may be needed.
Primarily the same manufacturers that make AFCI's are involved, go figure.

Yes, touché!

 

[hbiss]

Looks like just because they make it they think we should use it, nothing in there about how badly it may be needed.
Primarily the same manufacturers that make AFCI's are involved, go figure.

Apparently using the same method to ensure sales also.

-Hal

 

[falconewk]

240V GFCI protected outlets in WA

240V GFCI protected outlets in WA

I’ve never had to put a gfci on 240 outlets like that here in Washington and we are on the 2017 code.

If he is going to say you need to gfci that then next it will be the range outlets have to be gfci protected.

Why stop there? How about we put an afci on those too.

I think the inspector in your instance has his head up his pooper.

As it happens I think I contract in the same district in WA that you work/contract in, and I have had one of our local inspectors ding me on a 50amp welder receptacle in a detached shop, at a residence in South Richland, WA. It was the first time that this particular Code requirement from the 2017 cycle had registered with my lazy brain, however I have been trying to bid them into my exterior and shop projects since. I just installed one on a shop out in Finely, WA (redneck country in our local area) that I know I will get call backs on because I am counting on them using crummy old welding equipment, with all kinds of issues. I left a 2-pole 50amp breaker in the bottom of the panel so that if they harass me enough I can change it out.

As to the requirement, from what I understand one of the concerns is with equipment cords on 240V equipment that can deteriorate to the point of potential shock hazard (protecting us from our stupid and incompetent selves once again).

 

[falconewk]

In all seriousness, even with the hassle it is bound to create, it seems like a fairly logical requirement in terms of personnel that are likely to be in potentially well grounded positions (ie. kneeling, laying, or leaning on concrete, metal, and earth) all while working with equipment, fed with power cords that can get old and abused, not to mention sharp edges and materials- that could in some worst case scenario come in contact with the conductor inside SO or whatever and become energized or expose the energized conductors to the surrounding environment.

Please do not kill me for that statement.

ETA.. last thought, I found that the cheapest way to get a 50amp GFCI breaker is if you happen to use Cutler Hammer type "BR" breakers, you can purchase a 50amp Hot Tub disconnect for about 60% of the price of the breaker all by itself. I take out the BR250GFTB and toss the enclosure, easy savings.

 

[blkmagik21]

In all seriousness, even with the hassle it is bound to create, it seems like a fairly logical requirement in terms of personnel that are likely to be in potentially well grounded positions (ie. kneeling, laying, or leaning on concrete, metal, and earth) all while working with equipment, fed with power cords that can get old and abused, not to mention sharp edges and materials- that could in some worst case scenario come in contact with the conductor inside SO or whatever and become energized or expose the energized conductors to the surrounding environment.

Please do not kill me for that statement.

ETA.. last thought, I found that the cheapest way to get a 50amp GFCI breaker is if you happen to use Cutler Hammer type "BR" breakers, you can purchase a 50amp Hot Tub disconnect for about 60% of the price of the breaker all by itself. I take out the BR250GFTB and toss the enclosure, easy savings.

I too contract in the Tri cities “Stanley Electrical” and do the same with the disconnects. I get primo pricing on cutler hammer but the supply houses can’t beat Lowe’s or Home Depot on their cheap hot tub disconnects.

Also I just ran into this again today actually where I needed a 200 ampere fused/breakered disco. The disco without a breaker is cheap. You can buy the 200 ampere breaker for hundreds but a 32 space ch panel for less than 75 bucks. Then throw away the panel. Or I’ve saved it and bought main lugs for it as a sub panel.


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